Death Penalty-Change your mind yet? - Page 7

Kevlar281 · #91 01-14-2003, 02:28 AM

He perverted the justice system; if he felt these men were innocent or suffered from violations to their civil rights then they should have appealed not pardoned.

Rudey · #92 01-14-2003, 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kevlar281
He perverted the justice system; if he felt these men were innocent or suffered from violations to their civil rights then they should have appealed not pardoned.

I can start reading you names of people found innocent after being executed. I'm sure they tried to "appeal" for quite a while.

-Rudey
--Their system was not one of justice and had been perverted for quite a while actually - Ryan saw that.

agger_rob · #93 01-14-2003, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rudey

--Their system was not one of justice and had been perverted for quite a while actually - Ryan saw that.

Too bad he didn't "see" that some of the people pardoned were convicted with confessions AND DNA evidence to back it up. That's perversion.

valkyrie · #94 01-14-2003, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by agger_rob

Too bad he didn't "see" that some of the people pardoned were convicted with confessions AND DNA evidence to back it up. That's perversion.

Do you mean some of the people PARDONED or some of the people granted CLEMENCY?

Also, there was a long history in Chicago of people being tortured until they confessed to things they didn't do. That is inexcusable, and it's about time that somebody did something about it.

Rudey · #95 01-14-2003, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by agger_rob

Too bad he didn't "see" that some of the people pardoned were convicted with confessions AND DNA evidence to back it up. That's perversion.

1. As Valkyrie said, they were not pardoned and freed.
2. Confessions are pure BS. I can name people freed this year in several states because the confessions received were pure crap.
3. DNA evidence is itself not fool-proof. I can also name incidences were DNA was used incorrectly or maliciously. I don't mean OJ either.

-Rudey

agger_rob · #96 01-15-2003, 11:47 AM

Confessions alone, I don't hold too much faith in. But when you have confessions and DNA evidence together, that's a bit much to still assume that they're still innocent.

valkyrie · #97 01-15-2003, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by agger_rob
Confessions alone, I don't hold too much faith in. But when you have confessions and DNA evidence together, that's a bit much to still assume that they're still innocent.

Well, I think we're kind of getting into apples vs. oranges here. Granting someone clemency does not mean that he has been found innocent/not guilty. He is still considered guilty and is still in prison, however his sentence has been modified from death to life in prison.

I'm not aware of DNA evidence in any of the cases where Governor Ryan granted a pardon.

GPhiBLtColonel · #98 01-15-2003, 03:17 PM

...on keeping a convicted criminal alive for life in jail if the death penalty is what he/she deserves....

here's an interesting thought to share -- wonder how many folks who abhor the death penalty also think abortion is okay....hmmmm?

James · #99 01-15-2003, 04:38 PM

LOL I have heard this argument made in the reverse also. How many people that are pro-death penalty are anti-abortion . . .

A matter of timing I guess

Quote:

Originally posted by GPhiBLtColonel
...on keeping a convicted criminal alive for life in jail if the death penalty is what he/she deserves....

here's an interesting thought to share -- wonder how many folks who abhor the death penalty also think abortion is okay....hmmmm?

KSig RC · #**100** 01-15-2003, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GPhiBLtColonel
here's an interesting thought to share -- wonder how many folks who abhor the death penalty also think abortion is okay....hmmmm?

Well, gee golly we've cracked the case - except for the fact that these two arguments aren't necessarily in diametric opposition

I wonder how many folks wouldn't eat veal, but think that eggs are ok?

damasa · #**101** 01-16-2003, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GPhiBLtColonel

here's an interesting thought to share -- wonder how many folks who abhor the death penalty also think abortion is okay....hmmmm?

Why is that almost everytime the topic of the death penalty comes up, so does the topic of abortion? I don't see how the hell they are related or how it is relevant either?

Either way, yes, I support the death penalty and I am pro-choice (not to get it twisted with pro-abortion, but I am pro- a woman's right to choose).

Why is abortion not ok? I"d like to hear your input on that...

xok85xo · #**102** 01-16-2003, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KSig RC
I wonder how many folks wouldn't eat veal, but think that eggs are ok?

okay, i haven't even read thru this whole thread, nor do i have any desire to discuss my feelings on the death penalty right now.. i just want to state that i oppose to eating veal not because its a baby cow and its cute but because it is kept in a cage and is not allowed to move and roam about before it is killed and that makes me sad.

carry on

Munchkin03 · #**103** 01-16-2003, 05:47 PM

I think it's worth some thought that so many people who claim to be for the death penalty are also anti-choice. I think these people should be a little more consistent.

As for myself, I am virulently against the death penalty. I am looking for the information now, but I've read that the United States is one of the only First World countries that still practices the death penalty, and the others are on a list that would probably remind you of old Dubya's "axis of evil". When I find the list, I will post it. If the death penalty was given based on the severity of the crime, there would be another story entirely. But since it's not, there's a big flaw within the system. Also, what gives us the right to end someone's life, just because they killed someone? Two wrongs don't make a right!

Before we get on the veal vs. eggs controversy: has anyone ever seen footage of the hens who lay eggs? They are "kept in a cage and (are) not allowed to move and roam about" and they are injected with hormones for their entire lifes and their beaks are cut off. I don't know how I got on the egg tangent, but it is worth some thought. So, think about it.

Munchkin03 · #**104** 01-16-2003, 05:47 PM

I think it's worth some thought that so many people who claim to be for the death penalty are also anti-choice. I think these people should be a little more consistent.

As for myself, I am virulently against the death penalty. I am looking for the information now, but I've read that the United States is one of the only First World countries that still practices the death penalty, and the others are on a list that would probably remind you of old Dubya's "axis of evil". When I find the list, I will post it. If the death penalty was given based on the severity of the crime, there would be another story entirely. But since it's not, there's a big flaw within the system. Also, what gives us the right to end someone's life, just because they killed someone? Two wrongs don't make a right!

Before we get on the veal vs. eggs controversy: has anyone ever seen footage of the hens who lay eggs? They are "kept in a cage and (are) not allowed to move and roam about" and they are injected with hormones for their entire lives and their beaks are cut off. I don't know how I got on the egg tangent, but it is worth some thought. So, think about it.

KSig RC · #**105** 01-16-2003, 07:23 PM

Duder, you seem like cool people, so we don't really need to get into it over ideological differences, real or perceived - just these observations:

1. I think you missed my point on the veal/eggs thing, then you strawmanned it - let's just leave it on the table

2. Consistent? uhh . . . you assume they're the same argument. They are not. They are not even necessarily about the same thing - for some people, the death penalty debate isn't about killing people - it's about effective deterrence (or lack thereof). For some people, abortion isn't about 'killing the babies' - it's about a choice, and not restricting a choice across the board based solely on spirtual beliefs that are NOT universal. I think you're being inconsistent, by requiring that only one wavelength of thought be examined, or that every issue be reduced to a common denominator when other aspects are available - use them all!

3. Your first paragraph doesn't jive for me - would it be more consistent to be anti-death penalty and pro-choice? If we play by your rules (which, as stated in #2, I won't), then the converse must also be a fallacy.

Anyway, I'll jump back on the Pabst wagon and head back home, just some thoughts to get the wheels turning

Quote:

Originally posted by Munchkin03
I think it's worth some thought that so many people who claim to be for the death penalty are also anti-choice. I think these people should be a little more consistent.

As for myself, I am virulently against the death penalty. I am looking for the information now, but I've read that the United States is one of the only First World countries that still practices the death penalty, and the others are on a list that would probably remind you of old Dubya's "axis of evil". When I find the list, I will post it. If the death penalty was given based on the severity of the crime, there would be another story entirely. But since it's not, there's a big flaw within the system. Also, what gives us the right to end someone's life, just because they killed someone? Two wrongs don't make a right!

Before we get on the veal vs. eggs controversy: has anyone ever seen footage of the hens who lay eggs? They are "kept in a cage and (are) not allowed to move and roam about" and they are injected with hormones for their entire lifes and their beaks are cut off. I don't know how I got on the egg tangent, but it is worth some thought. So, think about it.