12-year-old tased by police officer

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Like I said, they also have the ability to use their judgment.

Their judgment and discretion are not "infinite". If you acknowlege that then we can stop going around in circles.

Now, I'm still perplexed by:

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Should a 12 year old child get tased? No

Should a 12 year old child get tased by the police? Depends.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Their judgment is not "infinite".

No, I was not saying that their judgment is "infinite".

I was responding to MC when he said that the point of this thread is to examine the parameters of when I cop should tase a 12 yr old. At least that is what I understood.

My response to that was, for as many people as you can ask, you can get that many parameters. After all, that is what we are discussing, right?

And, to think about it, it would not be infinite either. It is limited to the number of people on earth.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Their judgment and discretion are not "infinite". If you acknowlege that then we can stop going around in circles.

Now, I'm still perplexed by:

I explained that in my response to MC on the previous page.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

No, I was not saying that their judgment is "infinite".

I was responding to MC when he said that the point of this thread is to examine the parameters of when I cop should tase a 12 yr old. At least that is what I understood.

My response to that was, for as many people as you can ask, you can get that many parameters. After all, that is what we are discussing, right?

Controlling for policies, procedures, training, legal code, and intelligence:


The answers are not "infinite."

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

And, to think about it, it would not be infinite either. It is limited to the number of people on earth.

Forreal, sigmadiva? Wow.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

I explained that in my response to MC on the previous page.

I already read that. If unarmed children shoving on a playground versus children who bring a gun to the playground is your only model for police procedures on children then you clearly can only operate based on extremes.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Depends on what the 12 year old was doing.

If it is a kid at the play ground, and this kid gets in a shoving match with another kid, then no, the aggressor of the shoving match should not get tased.

If this same kid escalates the incident and brings a gun to the park with the intent to use it, then the least the cop should do is tase the kid to stop him or her from trying to use deadly force.

That is what I mean by "depends", it just depends on the nature of the situation.

But if it depends, then why did you say "Should a 12 year old child get tased? No?" That's the part that confuses me?

Then if this is the actual point to this thread, then we are debating an issue that has as many answers as people you can ask. In other words, it can be "infinite".

Seems pretty simple to me: If your local police department was going to review its policies concerning tasing or adopt new policies, what do you think the official policies should be:

• There are no circumstances under which a 12-year-old should be tased;
• A 12-year-old should not be tased unless the police officer first determines [list criteria here] and gives a clear warning;
• It should be left to a police officer's discretion to determine whether, under the cirsumstances, a 12-year-old should be tased; or
• Some other option.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

But if it depends, then why did you say "Should a 12 year old child get tased? No?" That's the part that confuses me?

So, first what confused you was when I said "depends", and I explained what I meant by that.

Now, its the simple answer to a simple question.

Okay, here goes:

Should a cop, with no justifiable reason, walk up to some random, 12 year old kid, and tase him or her, for no reason. No. But, that is how I see it.

Clear now?

Seems pretty simple to me: If your local police department was going to review its policies concerning tasing or adopt new policies, what do you think the official policies should be:

• There are no circumstances under which a 12-year-old should be tased;
• A 12-year-old should not be tased unless the police officer first determines [list criteria here] and gives a clear warning;
• It should be left to a police officer's discretion to determine whether, under the cirsumstances, a 12-year-old should be tased; or
• Some other option.

Actually, here in Houston, we just went through a similar situation with car chases. When should a cop chase a suspect in the car.

The answer is: as long as innocent life / by standers will not get hurt. It is a judgment that is left up to the cop.

You are right, policies need to be reviewed and critically examined on a regular basis. But even the best policy review can not account for every possible situation that may, or may not, occur in a given situation.

The only way law enforcement can satisfy the parameters that you and DrPhil are proposing is if we can predict the future. If so, then we can work in
absolutes. Since we can't predict the future, we are left with what we currently have - doing the best we can with the most current knowledge.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

So, first what confused you was when I said "depends", and I explained what I meant by that.

Now, its the simple answer to a simple question.

Okay, here goes:

Should a cop, with no justifiable reason, walk up to some random, 12 year old kid, and tase him or her, for no reason. No. But, that is how I see it.

Clear now?

Forreal, sigmadiva? Wow.

The common sentiment is that NO ONE (adult or child) should be tasered at random and for no justisfiable reason. If that is the depth of your capacity for discourse regarding this topic then please spare us.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

The only way law enforcement can satisfy the parameters that you and DrPhil are proposing is if we can predict the future. If so, then we can work in
absolutes.

Keep that in mind when a law enforcement officer pulls you over and, instead of telling you what you were pulled over for, physically forces you to get out of the car and searches your vehicle. Surely you will be understanding because...HEY...we cannot predict the future and cannot work in absolutes.

To hell with policies, procedures, the law, rights, etc.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

So, first what confused you was when I said "depends", and I explained what I meant by that.

No, that's not what confused me. What confused me is that you first provided this question and answer:

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Should a 12 year old child get tased? No.

And then provided this question and answer:

Should a 12 year old child get tased by the police? Depends.

I'm just trying to see how the two answers fit together. If you've already said, without qualification, that a 12-year old should not get tased, then how do you even get to the second question about police officers?

Actually, here in Houston, we just went through a similar situation with car chases. When should a cop chase a suspect in the car.

The answer is: as long as innocent life / by standers will not get hurt. It is a judgment that is left up to the cop.

Yes, the mother of a friend of mine was killed when a police officer, following that standard, was pursuing a suspect.

You suggest below that I'm trying to predict the future, but that's exactly what the standard you provide here does. There's no way a police officer can know that no innocent bystanders will be killed or hurt, and that would be an unworkable standard. A workable standard is that the police officer reasonably believes that the chase can be undertaken without endangering others and does all that he can to insure that others aren't endangered. It might still happen, but if so, it shouldn't be because the officer wasn't at least trying to minimize the chances.

You are right, policies need to be reviewed and critically examined on a regular basis. But even the best policy review can not account for every possible situation that may, or may not, occur in a given situation.

The only way law enforcement can satisfy the parameters that you and DrPhil are proposing is if we can predict the future. If so, then we can work in absolutes. Since we can't predict the future, we are left with what we currently have - doing the best we can with the most current knowledge.

I think you misunderstand what I'm talking about. I'm not trying to predict the future at all, nor am I suggesting absolutes or policies so detailed that they cover every possible scenario. I'm saying that workable policies, for the protection of the police officer as much as the protection of the public, lay out the basic rules, such as the one I suggested way upthread: A police officer should not tase a 12-year-old unless (1) that officer reasonably believes that it is necessary to do so in order to prevent the 12-year-old from harming him- or herself, the officer or others; and (2) the officer gives a clear warning that he or she will use the taser.

It is then up to the officer to apply those criteria in specific circumstances, and it is up to reviewing entities, if necessary, to determine whether the officer applied those criteria correctly -- for example, to determine whether the officer's belief that the 12-year-old was about to harm him- or herself or others was a reasonable belief under the circumstances.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

But if it depends, then why did you say "Should a 12 year old child get tased? No?" That's the part that confuses me?


Seems pretty simple to me: If your local police department was going to review its policies concerning tasing or adopt new policies, what do you think the official policies should be:

• There are no circumstances under which a 12-year-old should be tased;
• A 12-year-old should not be tased unless the police officer first determines [list criteria here] and gives a clear warning;
• It should be left to a police officer's discretion to determine whether, under the cirsumstances, a 12-year-old should be tased; or
• Some other option.

This assumes that the subject can be positively ID'd as 12, doesn't it? Especially for females, and I'll bet cross-racial IDs are even worse, telling the difference between a 12 year old and a 15-16 year old is not something which can be easily done.

Police officers aren't engaged in an age-guessing endeavor when they are arresting a suspect. They are responsible for their own safety first and second for the person they're placing into custody.

Such a progression probably isn't reasonable under all or even most circumstances. Your suggestion assumes the LEO has information which he typically doesn't have.

[sigmadiva]

Well, knowing that this can go on all day, and well into the night. And, I feel that I've explained my position "six ways from Sunday", then there is really nothing more that I can say.

Toodles!

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Kevin

This assumes that the subject can be positively ID'd as 12, doesn't it? Especially for females, and I'll bet cross-racial IDs are even worse, telling the difference between a 12 year old and a 15-16 year old is not something which can be easily done.

Police can generally determine that a person is under the age of 18 and there are procedures to guess the age range (if not the exact age) if no ID is present.

Originally Posted by Kevin

Police officers aren't engaged in an age-guessing endeavor when they are arresting a suspect.

Police officers are engaged in a number of things which includes gauging age range. That is one of the ways in which truancy, legal drinking age, and runaway laws and practices have always been possible both with and without an identification card.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Well, knowing that this can go on all day, and well into the night. And, I feel that I've explained my position "six ways from Sunday", then there is really nothing more that I can say.

Toodles!

You did this flounce nonsense in the Chick-Fil-A thread. You can stop posting without announcing as such. This thread existed before you posted and will exist after you stop posting.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Kevin

This assumes that the subject can be positively ID'd as 12, doesn't it? Especially for females, and I'll bet cross-racial IDs are even worse, telling the difference between a 12 year old and a 15-16 year old is not something which can be easily done.

Valid point -- I think I probably got sucked into the title of the tread on that one by focusing on 12-year-olds, and I wasn't really meaning to do that. If a policy is going to start with a premise that absent certain circumstances, a child (or minor) shouldn't be tased, than a workable policy would certainly need to take into account in some way the officer's ability to tell or make reasonable judgments about a person's age. As DrPhil notes, this wouldn't be new.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Well, knowing that this can go on all day, and well into the night. And, I feel that I've explained my position "six ways from Sunday", then there is really nothing more that I can say.

Toodles!

Really?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Valid point -- I think I probably got sucked into the title of the tread on that one by focusing on 12-year-olds, and I wasn't really meaning to do that. If a policy is going to start with a premise that absent certain circumstances, a child (or minor) shouldn't be tased, than a workable policy would certainly need to take into account in some way the officer's ability to tell or make reasonable judgments about a person's age. As DrPhil notes, this wouldn't be new.

I'm sure DrPhil would be happy with the explanation that oops, the officer made a cross-racial age ID and thought she was in fact 4-5 years older than she actually was and oops, tased her. Simple mistake, right?

Definitely, the age of the subject should be a factor, but I wouldn't put it anywhere near the top. The size and behavior of the subject would be paramount as well as any other surrounding circumstances.

As Jerry Sandusky said, age is just a number. (too soon?)

[PiKA2001]

I don't really see the point of this discussion given the fact that policies are already in place stating that tasers shouldn't be used on minors. These child tasing incidents are rare and like I said upthread, "shouldn't be used" doesn't mean "absolutely no fuckin way, let the 12 year old kill an officer before even thinking of tasing her". This officer will have to justify why he did what he did, but he isn't automatically in the wrong for doing it. There is no such thing as a "standard" arrest because every situation has different variables and officers need to to adapt and adjust to every situation.

ETA- FLOUNCE!lol