The Murder of Trayvon Martin

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by PM_Mama00

He's not a Detroiter. This has nothing to do with him. He has no investment in Detroit so why get involved?

Uh...what?

[PM_Mama00]

Originally Posted by Alumiyum

In Birmingham there are vigils being held for Trayvon and the city council wore hoodies. I like that the family is getting support. They should be getting it. So much about this case is just downright foul. But I had to wonder at the irony in Birmingham holding a vigil for this kid when we have a high per-capita murder rate, and so far this year almost all of the murders have been of young black men. (14 out of 15) I hope this case can be a jumping off point for cities to look into their own murder cases...I'm sure there are a ton of families around here that wish their children had gotten the same exposure when they were killed.

Aside from that this entire case scares me. How many times have I been with friends that looked/dressed just like him and why would anyone ever just SHOOT them while we were getting snacks or just hanging out outside? WTF?

That was the mindset of a lot of Detroiters during the rally here. Although, now the grandmother of the 9 month old killed by a drive by... the same woman people shielded from the cameras at the rally... is FINALLY getting air time. Good for her for trying to speak out at the rally about our own violence.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Uh...what?

Why does he need to get involved in local politics? Politics that are SO corrupt that the state NEEDS to step in to save our city. It doesn't make sense to me for outsiders to get involved, I don't care who it is, not just him. If he's going to get involved in Detroit's issues, focus on the gangs and violence and the dozens of black (and white) children that are dying.

I was thinking on the way home, if Zimmerman was correct that his head was being slammed into the ground... I wonder what the outcome would've been if he didn't have a gun on him. Would he have been killed? Would the country still be up in arms about the hood and racial profiling? A lot of different outcomes had the gun not been involved. Just thoughts.

[Alumiyum]

In Birmingham there are vigils being held for Trayvon and the city council wore hoodies. I like that the family is getting support. They should be getting it. So much about this case is just downright foul. But I had to wonder at the irony in Birmingham holding a vigil for this kid when we have a high per-capita murder rate, and so far this year almost all of the murders have been of young black men. (14 out of 15) I hope this case can be a jumping off point for cities to look into their own murder cases...I'm sure there are a ton of families around here that wish their children had gotten the same exposure when they were killed.

Aside from that this entire case scares me. How many times have I been with friends that looked/dressed just like him and why would anyone ever just SHOOT them while we were getting snacks or just hanging out outside? WTF?

[DaemonSeid]

apparently he lost his security officer job because he was too aggressive


Funeral director claims that there was no sign of fight on Martin's body

^^going on the supposition that the coroner can't speak...what would the FD see after the coroner was done with it?

[PM_Mama00]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

apparently he lost his security officer job because he was too aggressive


Funeral director claims that there was no sign of fight on Martin's body

^^going on the supposition that the coroner can't speak...what would the FD see after the coroner was done with it?

I'm assuming they see a lot when they do the make up and preparations.

[DrPhil]

HLN played the experts who analyzed Zimmerman's voice using advanced technology:

He did not sound like he was saying "fucking coon(s)". The idea is that he was saying "fucking punks."

If he is arrested and charged, and if the advanced digitable recording of his voice is admissable in court, that can reduce the ability to try him for a hate crime unless they can find a history of targeting people in a racial and ethnic group other than his own racial and ethnic group.

Whether or not he was saying "coon" does not reduce all of the anger over this incident and does not necessarily shape whether he should be arrested and tried for his vigilante justice.

[Kevin]

His father did an interview with Fox 16 News in Miami. His father is a former judge, apparently. The father that Zimmerman had a broken nose from the fight with Martin and that he was attacked. Assuming the broken nose part is true (kind of hard to fake that), if the state only has the evidence we've heard in public, then that may be all she wrote as far as any possible indictment.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Assuming the broken nose part is true (kind of hard to fake that), if the state only has the evidence we've heard in public, then that may be all she wrote as far as any possible indictment.

I disagree.

Trayvon Martin could have been defending himself just as George Zimmerman claims self-defense.

A broken nose (are there medical records?) after you follow someone and "just so happen" to have a gun--seems potentially justified to me. I see a possible indictment and hopefully no amount of family and friends in powerful positions will reduce that.

*****

Just like people want a lesson to be learned regarding young Black and Latino males and hoodies, I hope a lesson is being learned regarding what Neighborhood Watch is NOT about and vigilante justice.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I disagree.

Trayvon Martin could have been defending himself just as George Zimmerman claims self-defense.

The burden will be on the state to prove that Martin was not the aggressor. Not the other way around. Innocent 'til proven guilty. If Zimmerman was just following and was in a place he had a legal right to be, there's no duty to retreat. If that was the case and Martin attacked and caused the injuries described, I'd say lethal force was privileged at that point.

A broken nose (are there medical records?) after you follow someone and "just so happen" to have a gun--seems potentially justified to me. I see a possible indictment and hopefully no amount of family and friends in powerful positions will reduce that.

A broken nose is pretty hard to make up. Zimmerman's legal team is playing this exactly right. They're holding everything back until and if they have to deal with it in court. They don't have to convince the public that they're innocent. Just the Judge at the preliminary hearing or the Jury at trial.

Just like people want a lesson to be learned regarding young Black and Latino males and hoodies, I hope a lesson is being learned regarding what Neighborhood Watch is NOT about and vigilante justice.

Well, assuming Zimmerman's story is true (and I don't know what evidence there is to contradict it), vigilante justice isn't the story. We may just be talking about a cautionary tale for neighborhood watchers where if they scare the folks they are watching, they may end up being jumped.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Innocent 'til proven guilty.

That much is obvious.

Originally Posted by Kevin

A broken nose is pretty hard to make up.

A lot of things are hard to make up yet they are still fabricated.

Originally Posted by Kevin

...vigilante justice isn't the story. We may just be talking about a cautionary tale for neighborhood watchers where if they scare the folks they are watching, they may end up being jumped.

Or a cautionary tale for neighborhood watchers where if they watch too closely, follow, and do what can be interpreted as veering into vigilante justice...and just so happen to have a gun...they may be brought up on charges. We shall see.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

A lot of things are hard to make up yet they are still fabricated.

Nah. His attorney is handling this spectacularly. Everything which has been released from their side has been released purposefully, at least from what I've seen. If they say his nose was broken, it was. It would be up to the state to prove that Martin broke Zimmerman's nose in self-defense. There has been quite a bit of stuff, i.e., this, the Martin's juvenile charges, etc. which really don't fit with the narrative found in the first few pages of this thread. I'm not making the call either way at this point, but whether Martin is any kind of a victim at all in this thing is yet to be seen.

Or a cautionary tale for neighborhood watchers where if they watch too closely, follow, and do what can be interpreted as veering into vigilante justice...and just so happen to have a gun...they may be brought up on charges. We shall see.

"Following closely" cannot be vigilante justice. Period. As far as carrying a gun while on neighborhood watch, you'd be nuts not to. There are bad people out there and sometimes it's you or them. To think otherwise is naive.

[TonyB06]

Originally Posted by Kevin

The burden will be on the state to prove that Martin was not the aggressor. Not the other way around. Innocent 'til proven guilty. If Zimmerman was just following and was in a place he had a legal right to be, there's no duty to retreat. If that was the case and Martin attacked and caused the injuries described, I'd say lethal force was privileged at that point.

A broken nose is pretty hard to make up. Zimmerman's legal team is playing this exactly right. They're holding everything back until and if they have to deal with it in court. They don't have to convince the public that they're innocent. Just the Judge at the preliminary hearing or the Jury at trial.



Well, assuming Zimmerman's story is true (and I don't know what evidence there is to contradict it), vigilante justice isn't the story. We may just be talking about a cautionary tale for neighborhood watchers where if they scare the folks they are watching, they may end up being jumped.

Starting with the audio tape evidence that Zimmerman was following Martin, and, obviously continued to do so after being told not to by a police dispatcher, that would make Zimmerman the agressor in the minds of most reasonable people. Add to that the fact that Martin was unarmed and according to reports no more than 500 feet from his destination, Martin suddenly turning to attack his pursurer is not as reasonably plausible as other scenarios.


If Zimmerman had a legal right to not retreat, so to did Martin. If you cannot prove Zimmerman attacked, how can you prove Martin attacked? Yet Martin is dead. Other audio evidence regarding timeline and the confrontation, calls into question motives that night.

You mentioned Martin's past juvenile record, so I assume you think Zimmerman's 2005 attack on a police officer will be fair game as well?

Even if Zimmerman's nose is broken (we'll see) that's not proof that he still was not the agressor. Broken noses usually result in lots of lost blood. Yet Zimmerman's shirt appeared to be virtually free of blood (from video), and his face was bandage-free, 35 minutes after the confrontation. Add to that the EMT, heard on audio cancelling the second ambulance (meant for Zimmerman). There are plenty of reasons for reasonable minds to question the severity of the alleged injuries and whether deadly force was necesary.

There indeed are plenty of questions to be answered in the case.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by TonyB06

If Zimmerman had a legal right to not retreat, so to did Martin. If you cannot prove Zimmerman attacked, how can you prove Martin attacked? Yet Martin is dead. Other audio evidence regarding timeline and the confrontation, calls into question motives that night.

The state will have to prove that Zimmerman attacked. Not that it was likely or plausible that he attacked.

You mentioned Martin's past juvenile record, so I assume you think Zimmerman's 2005 attack on a police officer will be fair game as well?

If Zimmerman takes the stand, it could be introduced that he plead to resisting an officer without violence.

Even if Zimmerman's nose is broken (we'll see) that's not proof that he still was not the agressor. Broken noses usually result in lots of lost blood. Yet Zimmerman's shirt appeared to be virtually free of blood (from video), and his face was bandage-free, 35 minutes after the confrontation. Add to that the EMT, heard on audio cancelling the second ambulance (meant for Zimmerman). There are plenty of reasons for reasonable minds to question the severity of the alleged injuries and whether deadly force was necesary.

You don't have to wait until you've suffered severe injuries to defend yourself. Don't be so obtuse.

[knight_shadow]

^^ You said what I was thinking much better than I did.

ETA: Kevin -- how would Zimmerman have known he was from an area in Miami with a drug problem just by looking at him?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

ETA: Kevin -- how would Zimmerman have known he was from an area in Miami with a drug problem just by looking at him?

I never said that. I said that Zimmerman's neighborhood, though gated, had recently had some crime.

As for the marijuana conviction, I do think that's relevant. I'm not suggesting reefer madness, but I am suggesting that someone who partakes in illegal narcotics is by definition someone who doesn't mind breaking the law when it suits them to.