A disconnect with legacies?

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Most of the time, not. "Politeness" and "political correctness" have very little to do with one another. Calling someone "a person with disabilities" instead of "a cripple" doesn't mean you treat them any nicer or do things that actually help them.

Perhaps PC wasn't the most accurate phrase to use in my post, but if you can think of another, go for it.

Yeah calling people crippled in no way dehumanizes them at all or is impolite. I'd leave it at "use the terms people use to describe themselves" but that really doesn't cover everything - for example, group conversations or situations where you're impolitely describing someone sitting in front of you without realizing it. You have the free speech to be offensive but it makes you an asshole.

Persons with disabilities is really little more than institutional politeness and is all encompassing. The term PC became widespread as a term of derision over the idea that we should have to force the words "Native American" or "firefighter" out of our mouths. Oh. The horror. The Daily Mail can continue to rail against PC gone mad, but it is not hard for me to use the correct words or to acknowledge that I don't get to use the same words that other people do and still be considered polite.

/the horrrrrror of PC ohhhh nooooooo

//the right term would probably have been "impossible" and/or "irrelevant"

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by TriDeltaSallie

I don't believe that is correct about Tri Delta. A DDD legacy is daughter or sister only. If you go here and open the "Recruitment Demystified" link it says daughters and sisters only on page 4 of the PDF in the glossary.

You guys exclude steps?

[TriDeltaSallie]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

You guys exclude steps?

I don't know if "exclude" is the right word. DDD leadership apparently only includes daughters and sisters. So that means we also "exclude" cousins, aunts, and grandmothers.

The only reason this jumped out at me is because I remember reading that it was only mothers and sisters now and I was surprised that grandmothers were no longer on the list. Obviously a casualty of the growing number of members in recent decades and a need to narrow the potential field.

I'm pretty sure we aren't the only ones who have narrowed it to this degree and I'm sure we won't be the last.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by TriDeltaSallie

I don't know if "exclude" is the right word. DDD leadership apparently only includes daughters and sisters. So that means we also "exclude" cousins, aunts, and grandmothers.

The only reason this jumped out at me is because I remember reading that it was only mothers and sisters now and I was surprised that grandmothers were no longer on the list. Obviously a casualty of the growing number of members in recent decades and a need to narrow the potential field.

I'm pretty sure we aren't the only ones who have narrowed it to this degree and I'm sure we won't be the last.

I understand limiting grandmothers, but I'd be surprised if a step daughter were actively excluded from anyone's legacy policy. I'm more likely to believe that they're just not specifically mentioned like 'adoptive.'

/and yes yes it does mean that you exclude cousins, aunts, and grandmothers... I'm confused how you wouldn't be excluding them? You're not including them as legacies, right? So...

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I'd leave it at "use the terms people use to describe themselves" but that really doesn't cover everything . . . .

. . . . but it is not hard for me to use the correct words or to acknowledge that I don't get to use the same words that other people do and still be considered polite.

Ah, there's the rub though. I'm fine with call people what they call themselves, but sometimes that means there's not a "correct" word, and the problem is attempting to enforce a correctness that doesn't really exist.

For example, I don't mind saying "Indian" (or "American Indian") and I don't mind saying "Native American." I don't want to offend. But I have been castigated for not saying "Native American" even though I have been told by my "Native American" friends that they don't like to be called that, that they prefer to be called by their tribe or to be called [American] Indians. So what's a person to do, pay attention to people they know or pay attention to those who have decided which term is "correct" and will correct you if you don't follow their lead?

(And I'm not saying no one prefers to be called Native American. I'm just saying that friends have told me they don't like to be called Native American, but I'm sure others do prefer it. I'm just trying to be respectful.)

And I think PCness goes further than that. Frankly, I think "pledge" vs. "new member" and "rush" vs. "recruitment" can veer into the realm of PC.

I'm totally with you on being polite and considerate. But I'm not with you on thinking that there aren't some overzealous political correctness police out there. I've met them all too often.

[UGAalum94]

Yep, MysticCat. You are right.

[TriDeltaSallie]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I understand limiting grandmothers, but I'd be surprised if a step daughter were actively excluded from anyone's legacy policy. I'm more likely to believe that they're just not specifically mentioned like 'adoptive.'

/and yes yes it does mean that you exclude cousins, aunts, and grandmothers... I'm confused how you wouldn't be excluding them? You're not including them as legacies, right? So...

I think using the word "exclude" sounds like something you don't want. And I don't think that is the intention in narrowing it to mothers and sisters. I'm sure all Tri Deltas are happy to have any woman who has a Tri Delta connection consider our sisterhood.

So "exclude" sounds exclusive or negative to me and I'm sure that isn't the intention.

It is more about having to decide who to include and given the overwhelming legacy problems so many schools are starting to face, I'm not surprised they chose to narrow the parameters. I bet there was a lot of discussion before the grandmother connection was dropped.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Ah, there's the rub though. I'm fine with call people what they call themselves, but sometimes that means there's not a "correct" word, and the problem is attempting to enforce a correctness that doesn't really exist.

No there's not always one correct word, but there ARE words that are considered generally offensive.

For example, I don't mind saying "Indian" (or "American Indian") and I don't mind saying "Native American." I don't want to offend. But I have been castigated for not saying "Native American" even though I have been told by my "Native American" friends that they don't like to be called that, that they prefer to be called by their tribe or to be called [American] Indians. So what's a person to do, pay attention to people they know or pay attention to those who have decided which term is "correct" and will correct you if you don't follow their lead?

Generally you'd pay attention to the people you know, although also not always assuming that those people represent everyone. And there's an element of reclamation of words that may make it OK for members of a group to use words and not ok for non-members to use them.

People can be misinformed from either side of the spectrum. But think this way if you had one friend who said "American Indian and/or tribal name" and another friend who said "Native American" you'd probably manage to code switch and use the correct words with each. Even if you didn't, your friends would probably understand. If you insisted on saying whatever you preferred because it was 'too hard' to remember or worse to just say 'INJUN' you'd be an asshole. Which, MC, you're not There's a big difference in words used for policy "persons with disabilities" and words used among social groups - where 'cripple' might be ok because it's been kind of reclaimed by an individual or group of individuals.

(And I'm not saying no one prefers to be called Native American. I'm just saying that friends have told me they don't like to be called Native American, but I'm sure others do prefer it. I'm just trying to be respectful.)

And that's the point. When it's

And I think PCness goes further than that. Frankly, I think "pledge" vs. "new member" and "rush" vs. "recruitment" can veer into the realm of PC.

Could, except that it's not really "PC" in any way other than the fact that our orgs have changed the language. They've intentionally changed the language for a reason. It's called marketing. It's not so we don't offend the widdle PNMs feewings.

I'm totally with you on being polite and considerate. But I'm not with you on thinking that there aren't some overzealous political correctness police out there. I've met them all too often.

I didn't say that they weren't assholes too, they're not typically being 'polite' themselves. That doesn't make any of it about being "PC" or not.

Originally Posted by TriDeltaSallie

I think using the word "exclude" sounds like something you don't want.

Not necessarily, it means the opposite of including. It doesn't mean you won't offer them bids, but it does mean you're not extending them special consideration of legacy. In some sense it also does mean you don't "want" to include them in your legacy definition on a national level. I'm not sure what other word you would use that wouldn't require talking around the subject. Omit? Leave out? Not include? Exclude isn't inherently negative, our orgs are exclusive in many ways and inclusive in others.

And I don't think that is the intention in narrowing it to mothers and sisters. I'm sure all Tri Deltas are happy to have any woman who has a Tri Delta connection consider our sisterhood.

Right, but not necessarily as a legacy. This is the same with every NPC org AFAICT

So "exclude" sounds exclusive or negative to me and I'm sure that isn't the intention.

It is exclusive, that has to be the intent or it would include everyone.

It is more about having to decide who to include and given the overwhelming legacy problems so many schools are starting to face, I'm not surprised they chose to narrow the parameters. I bet there was a lot of discussion before the grandmother connection was dropped.

I'm still curious to know whether steps are excluded or included by the policy. And I'm still leaning towards 'included by lack of exclusion.'

[MysticCat]

^^^^ My point is that it's not a choice between being offensive and being "PC." This is the statement that I quoted above and that I have a problem with:

Originally Posted by Drolefille

*PC is a bullshit phrase mostly made up and used by people who think that being polite infringes too much on their freedom to use offensive words. Being "un-PC" is not a thing, there's usually just being "an asshole." Like trying to find out if a PNM's mom is a) alive, b) really loves her or just kind of likes her or c) abandoned her and lives in Europe.

If people are using their aversion to PC to justify being offensive, then that's a valid problem. But the fact that some people do that doesn't mean that there aren't real PC police out there.

[KSUViolet06]

Steps aren't specifically mentioned with us either, but chapters are encouraged to give them the courtesies of a legacy as if she were a daughter.

I've seen alumnae send in recs for stepchildren and in the legacy portion (our reference and legacy forms are the same thing) just check "daughter." Especially if the member has been the child's stepmother for a long time (ex: if you've been someone's stepmom since they were 3, they're essentially your daughter.)

[33girl]

My point was that just because you call someone the "correct" term, doesn't meant that you are also treating them nicely or equally. To put it in Greek terms, you can call people "new members" and still be hazing them in other ways.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

^^^^ My point is that it's not a choice between being offensive and being "PC." This is the statement that I quoted above and that I have a problem with:If people are using their aversion to PC to justify being offensive, then that's a valid problem. But the fact that some people do that doesn't mean that there aren't real PC police out there.

No I'm really sticking by that. I feel like you're setting up a strawman here though. I'm not saying that. It's not a choice between being polite and offensive, it's not all black or white, there are plenty of shades of gray. There are, however, plenty of people who bitch about the concept of "political correctness" because it ~infringes~ upon their ~*RIGHT*~ to say offensive things. "Why can't I say queer, they say queer," etc.

In 33girl's case it was the equivalent of "no disrespect, but," or "I'm not a racist, but." Once those words are said, we all know what's coming next.

I'm not going to say "yeah there are 'PC police' because those people are being idiots (even if theoretically well meaning ones at times), and one can hardly call them the PC police when they're being the exact opposite of what "PC" supposedly is. There are assholes who try to correct others' language in an assholy way and they're just assholes, not PC police*.

*Actual members of the minority group are excepted from being called assholes just for not being nice about correcting someone. After the billionth time hearing an offensive term, I really don't think anyone's obligated to be nice about it.

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

Steps aren't specifically mentioned with us either, but chapters are encouraged to give them the courtesies of a legacy as if she were a daughter.

I've seen alumnae send in recs for stepchildren and in the legacy portion (our reference and legacy forms are the same thing) just check "daughter." Especially if the member has been the child's stepmother for a long time (ex: if you've been someone's stepmom since they were 3, they're essentially your daughter.)

This is what I was thinking. Steps wouldn't be excluded, but implicitly included.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

In 33girl's case it was the equivalent of "no disrespect, but," or "I'm not a racist, but." Once those words are said, we all know what's coming next.

Like I said, if you have a better way to say what I was trying to say, lay it on me. Or are you saying it is OK to say that there's a difference between stepparents who have played a parental role and those who haven't, and legacy status should reflect that?

[ComradesTrue]

This is how steps are referenced in our legacy policy:

A Theta legacy is defined as a daughter, granddaughter, great-granddaughter, or sister of a Kappa Alpha Theta. Stepdaughters, step granddaughters, step great-granddaughters, and stepsisters are considered legacies if their family considers them as such and if the family asks that they be considered as such on the legacy introduction form. These women deserve special consideration.

(emphasis mine)

That seems to cover both bases: the step who raised a girl since she was 3 would be considered a legacy, since the family defines their relationship as mother-daughter. It would then exclude the 25 year old step-mother when real dad had his mid-life crisis, since clearly that is not a mother/daughter relationship.

It also better defines the step-sister situation, since again, some of these step-sisters could have grown up together, whereas others grew up across the country with virtually no interaction.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by 33girl

My point was that just because you call someone the "correct" term, doesn't meant that you are also treating them nicely or equally. To put it in Greek terms, you can call people "new members" and still be hazing them in other ways.

Right, I didn't say anything about equality, just politeness.

That's not being PC that's being polite.

Now, being polite and still treating people like shit still makes you an asshole, but at least you're a polite asshole, I suppose.
Example: "Gay and lesbian individuals should not get married because they can't make babies." "African-American families during slavery were better off than they are now." Polite in their language usage but still assholes.

Treating people nicely and equally in every way but using the terms that they prefer to call themselves still... makes you an asshole.
Example:
"You queers can get married now you fudge-packers*."
and
"N****** are people too."

These will not make you friends either.

Tl;dr: words and actions both count, so you can't pretend the words are just superfluous.