Kappa Beta Gamma/Kappa Delta

[33girl]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

Could the difficulties in communication between KBG and the NPCs involved be explained by the fact that there is little precedent for this kind of thing?

cough cough AES sororities cough cough. I'm sure there were some sort of standards set up back then when all that went down.

And as I've said before, non-NPCs have released chapters to NPC groups before. I know, mine did it, for reasons very similar to KBG's.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by vedette713

(1) In Fall 2005, after the Tri-Sigma chapter on our campus closed, their landlord offered to rent us their (very, very nice) house. So we could have had a house, had we wanted it. We said no, because there simply wasn’t enough interest among sisters for it. I should point out that not all the Greek organizations on our campus have houses, and since we always had several sisters willing to lend apartments or houses for sorority activities, we never needed one.

(2) When we began disaffiliation talks with KBG national, we already knew the school was working to create a “Greek Row” where all the Greek organizations would be moving into houses owned by the college. Granted we didn’t know exactly when this would occur, but we knew it was in the near future. So we would have had no reason to ask you to buy us a house.

The Greek system just became re-recognized after how many years?? I'm glad you guys are feeling positive, but seriously, in that situation, I wouldn't trust promises of a Greek Row in the "near future" any further than I could throw them.

Originally Posted by vedette713

And the website hasn’t been updated since 2004 (I know they’re working on it, but the fact remains it’s been over four years), we’ve never seen a KBG magazine, the first visit a national representative ever made to this campus was this fall when we were trying to disaffiliate (not even to initiate our chapter — our founders went to them), and while convention did happen, unless “leadership workshops” refers specifically to what goes on at convention, we’ve never had them.

There are smaller NPC groups who had these same issues as well and from what I've seen of their members on GC and other venues, their members didn't use these things as an excuse to try and free themselves from the group. Instead, they took the initiative to try to build up their groups and try harder.

ETA: not to mention, the "Nu Chapter of KBG" website is still up. http://www.geocities.com/kappafandm/Homepage.html I don't know that much about Geocities, but I thought there was a way they could take websites down.

[ForeverRoses]

Originally Posted by 33girl

There are smaller NPC groups who had these same issues as well and from what I've seen of their members on GC and other venues, their members didn't use these things as an excuse to try and free themselves from the group. Instead, they took the initiative to try to build up their groups and try harder.

I think this goes back to the debate of what is this group going to give me, versus what can I add and contribute to this group.

Personally, I have always felt more of a part of a group when I feel like I am adding and contributing versus just waiting for what they are going to give me.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by FSUZeta

wouldn't the alumnae still be considered alumnae, much like our own members who were initiated into a chapter that has closed(for whatever reason)?

As far as the alumnae who are out of school, I don't know why they wouldn't be considered alumnae. They are not responsible for the actions of the actives.

With regard to the actives though - if they disaffiliated, either as part of a group or individually, I don't think they would be alumnae any more than anyone else who disaffiliates/self-terminates from her sorority.

[vedette713]

Originally Posted by 33girl

The Greek system just became re-recognized after how many years?? I'm glad you guys are feeling positive, but seriously, in that situation, I wouldn't trust promises of a Greek Row in the "near future" any further than I could throw them.

Hi! Thank you for your comment — and I apologize. If you go to our college, you’ve learned to take it for granted that when the president says he’s going to do something, he’s going to do it. And that becomes so ingrained that you forget other people won’t be so willing to do the same.

And, while it unfortunately doesn’t mention our Greek System, I figured The New York Times was as great a back-up I could get on this, so please check it out if you don’t want to go on what I’m saying alone: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/05/ny...=1&oref=slogin

So, in 1988, F&M’s Board of Trustees voted to derecognize our Greek System, following a series of “various offenses” (campus rumor has these including severe hazing and a rape) and the Greeks refusal to adopt the reforms the college thought necessary. Consequently, the college saw the organizations as a liability and moved to ensure, basically, that it couldn’t be sued for whatever they got up to. I believe there was also the dream that, without the college’s support, the system would wither and die. Instead, it flourished.

So when our current president, John Fry, took office in 2002, he found himself in the position where a significant percentage of his students were joining a system that resulted at least in a drop in their grades, and was probably hazing them intensely. He also had alumni who wouldn’t donate to the college because their organizations were de-recognized (and Greeks seem to be the most reliable donors, probably because, through their organizations, they feel a closer tie to the college). It wasn’t a good situation, and President Fry decided he was going to fix it. Quickly. Because that’s what he does.

Re-recognition officially occurred in 2004. It featured deferred pledging (no freshmen could pledge until spring of their freshmen year) and a GPA requirement for pledging. Additionally, the school averages the spring GPAs of the freshmen in a spring pledge class. The class as a whole has to hit a 2.7 for the organization to take freshmen the following spring. Consequently, new member education now sees all organizations running study halls, and, for the most part, the fraternities hit that mark. And the sororities surpass it. The school also requires new members to attend presentations on hazing and on substance abuse, and has introduced a website where students can anonymously support hazing. So it’s been a huge change in only two years. And frankly, looking back on it, the only things that’s surprising about that is that it took President Fry 2 years to do it (although he did have very reluctant faculty and community members, and he had to come up with a program the school, the alumni, and the current Greek collegians could agree on, so I suppose that took time).

And huge changes in two years is the norm for our president. For example, I toured F&M in Summer 2003. Since that time, the president’s overseen the creation of a new bookstore and coffee shop; completely redone our dining services (several times, actually); built a Writers House, an International Center, new apartments for upperclassmen, a huge new life sciences building, a performing arts building with theater, a turf field, new tennis courts, redone the lounges in the residences, and added a beautiful new addition to one of our Houses to give its residents a common space. Oh, and he transformed our residential system: We went from residence halls to a House System (think Harry Potter).

This fall, the college will open a new center for Jewish life, an addition to a second House, and a Sustainability Theme House. And students will be living in houses off-campus that the College has purchased and is renovating as I type. In the spring, our government and business departments will move into a building that has been completely renovated for their use.

And I’m absolute positive I’m forgetting many of President Fry’s accomplishments.

So, why did we believe our president when he said we’d have a house through the school very soon? Well … because our president said we’d have a house through the school very soon.

Sorry that was so long, but I hope it clears that question up!

[vedette713]

Oh, and if I didn't make it clear in the previous post, we will have a house through the school for fall 2008.

[33girl]

For your sake, I hope it does work out OK. And I'm honestly not trying to be Debbie Downer here.

But fraternity and sorority housing is not the same as building a coffeehouse or a science center - especially if the college would have to buy more land from the town to put it on. That land would become part of the campus and would no longer be taxable. Obtaining a house through the school (which, from what I gather from F & M's website, is an off-campus private house on which taxes are paid by the owner) is not the same as having a Greek Row built for you by the college, on campus land.

Saying "you will have a Greek row in the near future" and "we can hook you up with an off campus house" are two vastly different things.

This has nothing to do w/ KBG really, just a "don't count your chickens" sort of comment.

[aopirose]

So you say you're getting a house?

[vedette713]

Originally Posted by 33girl

The Greek system just became re-recognized after how many years?? I'm glad you guys are feeling positive, but seriously, in that situation, I wouldn't trust promises of a Greek Row in the "near future" any further than I could throw them.



There are smaller NPC groups who had these same issues as well and from what I've seen of their members on GC and other venues, their members didn't use these things as an excuse to try and free themselves from the group. Instead, they took the initiative to try to build up their groups and try harder.

Originally Posted by ForeverRoses

I think this goes back to the debate of what is this group going to give me, versus what can I add and contribute to this group.

Personally, I have always felt more of a part of a group when I feel like I am adding and contributing versus just waiting for what they are going to give me.

Personally, I have always felt more of a part of a group when I feel like I am adding and contributing versus just waiting for what they are going to give me.[/QUOTE]

Thanks once again for your thoughts on the situation. And I — and the rest of my sorority — would agree with you that it’s in contributing that one feels like one belongs to a group. That’s certainly what we’ve done on a chapter level, academically, philanthropically, and simply in supporting our sisters through thick and thin.

To the extent that you’re suggesting we should have continued in an affiliation with an organization that was not meeting its promises to us, hadn’t been meeting its promises to us for the extent of our careers with the organization, and wasn’t offering us any concrete assurances that they would be meeting those promises in the future — well, I’m going to have to respectfully disagree with you. (And once again, this is not meant as an insult to BootyKBG or her board. I wish them the best of luck).

I realize that if you’ve been lucky enough to be a proud member of a sorority for decades, three to four years of broken promises probably seems like nothing. Please understand, though, that that’s the whole of my career as a collegiate sister, and more than half the history of my chapter. We can’t look back to say, “the glorious ’80s” or something. We had to make our decision based on our experiences and whether we thought the situation would improve. And since the assurances we were given that it would were the exact same assurances we’d been receiving for years — without the situation improving — we elected, unanimously, to ask for disaffiliation.

It was never a matter of “but NPC can offer us so much more!” It was, “Do I feel like I’ve been treated well by this organization, and am I comfortable leaving my younger sisters in this situation?” The answer was no.

With regard to the question of whether or not we did disaffiliate fully, I can only say, once again, that I know for a fact that my sorority set out to fulfill every letter of the law and that we never had any intention of disrespecting KBG. I heard from multiple members of our executive board that we, our director of Greek Life, and NPC received an e-mail from KBG nationals releasing us. I cannot imagine our executive board moving forward with extension without this release, nor can I see our Greek Life office or NPC allowing us to do so. We certainly would never have attempted to “hoodwink” NPC or KD, who we respect very much as organizations and are grateful to be a part of.

And on a personal note, if you wanted to PM me, I would be very interested in your suggestions for what you think we could have done. Because if we had thought there was something we could have done, we definitely would have done it (no one was thrilled about having to break the affiliation). There was just this sense of really … hopeless disenfranchisement, I guess is the best way to put it. And we did what we did because we really thought it was our only option.

[FSUZeta]

Originally Posted by 33girl

As far as the alumnae who are out of school, I don't know why they wouldn't be considered alumnae. They are not responsible for the actions of the actives.

With regard to the actives though - if they disaffiliated, either as part of a group or individually, I don't think they would be alumnae any more than anyone else who disaffiliates/self-terminates from her sorority.

well said. that is what i was trying to say, but you said it better.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by vedette713

Personally, I have always felt more of a part of a group when I feel like I am adding and contributing versus just waiting for what they are going to give me. Thanks once again for your thoughts on the situation. And I — and the rest of my sorority — would agree with you that it’s in contributing that one feels like one belongs to a group. That’s certainly what we’ve done on a chapter level, academically, philanthropically, and simply in supporting our sisters through thick and thin.

It sounds to me like your chapter did what was best for you and your sisters. Your loyalty to each other didn't extend to KBG simply because you didn't feel that there was a benefit to membership in their sorority. It's a lesson to all sororities...we must provide programming and support relevant to our collegiate chapters, or we are not providing the sisterhood opportunities that we claim. Being a name for a group is NOT enough.

[Ch2tf]

Originally Posted by vedette713

I realize that if you’ve been lucky enough to be a proud member of a sorority for decades, three to four years of broken promises probably seems like nothing. Please understand, though, that that’s the whole of my career as a collegiate sister, and more than half the history of my chapter. We can’t look back to say, “the glorious ’80s” or something. We had to make our decision based on our experiences and whether we thought the situation would improve. And since the assurances we were given that it would were the exact same assurances we’d been receiving for years — without the situation improving — we elected, unanimously, to ask for disaffiliation.

This is sort of the problem right here. NPC absorbtion is definitely not something I'm very familiar with, however, I think it relates to chapter issues/operations in general across all GLOs. Undergrads always think of college as an end all be all. Baring an early death or intentional disaffiliation, you will be an alumna of your sorority WAAAAAAAAAY longer than you will be an undergrad member. I can't recall the length of time KBG was at F&M, but all of that history was sort of lost once you ladies decided as a chapter to leave.

Does KBG "technically" still have the chapter at F&M? (By this I mean is it like their former chapter there closed because there is no one currently OR is it there is no longer ABC chapter of KBG at F&M for good)

No one here can tell you what you do and don't have a right to feel regarding your former organization. However, women that come to F&M no longer have the option to choose KBG. So in that way, I can see how some might view it as selfish, because you ladies decided what you wanted (not saying that your points aren't valid) in the immediate future, superceeded the history behind you and the future before you.

[ajuhdg]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

It sounds to me like your chapter did what was best for you and your sisters. Your loyalty to each other didn't extend to KBG simply because you didn't feel that there was a benefit to membership in their sorority. It's a lesson to all sororities...we must provide programming and support relevant to our collegiate chapters, or we are not providing the sisterhood opportunities that we claim. Being a name for a group is NOT enough.

ABSOLUTELY! I thought I was the only one that was sympathizing with the new KD's. It seems that throughout their history (however brief it was) they were always trying to make themselves and their organization better, what they had all wanted. It got to a point where they obviously couldn't do it all on their own. What did they have left to fight for?

As many women going into recruitment don't realize what a small piece of the complex organization they are. I sure didn't. I was like, "WOW! These girls are great. We have so much in common! They want me to be part of this group! WHY NOT!?" That's kind of the point to membership education, you learn how big it really is. To accuse these girls of disloyalty is a slight stretch, I think. They SAY the did everything they felt was in their scope to do, and I find it hard to believe that KD would have gone in flippantly trying to divide and conquer. They acted like true sisters, and tried to work unitedly under their KBG values, and it just didn't work.

I'm not mad at them...

Edited because Cht2f posted at the same time. If you look in the Delta Gamma forum, you'll see the list of all of our chapters. You'll notice that MANY of them started as a local (whether these locals had more than one chapter, I do not know). I do know that many of the chapters will integrate their previous traditions and history into the history of the new chapter. Hopefullly, these girls will do the same.

[33girl]

OK, I was totally giving yinz the benefit of the doubt, but truthfully? The more you post, the less I do.

You guys go to F & M. It's a well respected institution, not Wilma Boyd Travel School. Its students are intelligent. They did not just get off turnip trucks. They can compare and reason.

When you compared KBG's website to some of the NPC groups - did you not see a difference? Did you not compare their resources offered - and the dues you would have to pay - with some of your other friends that were in sororities?

Honestly, what did you think it was going to be like?

Maybe your founders/alumnae made a bad choice to begin with, but if you want sympathy because "this group is so much different from what they promised when we were colonizing!" you are certainly not alone in that respect. It's happened to people who colonized with NPCs too. And if you had attempted to do what you did if your first group had been an NPC, no other NPC would have touched you with a 10 foot pole.

[nittanyalum]

Originally Posted by Ch2tf

This is sort of the problem right here. NPC absorbtion is definitely not something I'm very familiar with, however, I think it relates to chapter issues/operations in general across all GLOs. Undergrads always think of college as an end all be all. Baring an early death or intentional disaffiliation, you will be an alumna of your sorority WAAAAAAAAAY longer than you will be an undergrad member. I can't recall the length of time KBG was at F&M, but all of that history was sort of lost once you ladies decided as a chapter to leave.

But these undergrads weren't even getting the full college experience, it sounds like. No materials, training, support, marketing through a website that would help them in rush, etc. So they would graduate into alum status and, what? They would still know very little and probably not be successful building an alum chapter if they had difficulty even running their undergrad chapter. And if I remember correctly, hadn't the chapter only been there since 2002 or so? So it's not like there was a ton of chapter history they were "destroying".