balanced man vs traditional

[Benson7824]

"I think that traditional chapters have a lot more unity and understanding of eachother than balanced man chapters."

I disagree...but it sounds like my BMP chapter runs differently from yours. We take the BMP seriously, but not 100% by the letter.

As for the reputation that some keep referencing...what reputation is being ruined? Please describe the reputation so I can understand how the BMP is ruining it. My BMP chapter is very selective, our brotherhood is tight, we are leaders all through campus, the women love us and we know how to party, but not get in trouble for it. Is that ruining the SigEp reputation?

I have met a lot of guys through Carlsons and Conclaves, and I have met a far amount of "tools" that are from both traditional and bmp chapters. I have met a lot of awesome brothers from both as well. Why are we competing with each other about which is better?? Men are finding both to be effective or crappy...depending on that particular group of guys at that university. It's as simple as that.

[TrueSPE]

That etiquette dining thing is probably the shittiest thing I've ever heard of in my life. Wow. Maybe we overgeneralize the embarassment that the BMP is to our fraternity sometimes, but with that kind of shit, it's hard not to.

And it's pretty obvious that etiquette is a direct result of the BMP. What was once a social fraternity is becoming an honors society. GPA and numbers become all that counts, rather than brotherly love. At the least, the BMP is seriously dividing the chapters, ruining our core virtue. Fuck it.

[sigepsal]

wow... so i guess this is quite the headed discussion. and to be honest.. i think the largest problem here is a huge misunderstanding... and quite honestly.. a little ignorance...

to say that you can tell when a chapter is BMP and Traditional just by meeting them is ridiculous, cause i know A LOT of chapters that don't fit either mold.

the program itself is not built to tear down ur unity as a fraternity, but i think in a lot of cases it brings your fraternity closer together. there are still obvious pledge classes (no, we don't call them that, but they are guys that all come in together and go through the program at the same time), but they are not as segregated as pledge-brother. i think that this brings together the fraternity as a whole, breaking down the smaller clicks such as pledge classes.

just because you are a weak member in a BMP chapter does not mean you get a free ride through the whole program. at any time a brother can be brought to standards and kicked out. there are a lot of standards that sig eps are held accountable to, and it is the chapters responsibility to make sure those standards of membership do not drop. and, members that do not meet those standards can be kicked out by the standards board at any time. so again, it is up to the chapter to keep their members strong, and not let anyone slide through the program.

as for the respect issue, that is just ridiculous also. you want respect, win shit. let ur record speak for itself. how can another fraternity tell you that you are weak if you beat them in all sports. beat them in greek week. or whatever else your school has.

"sigma phi everyone"? again, this has nothing to do with the bmp. if you have low recruitment standards then that if your personal choice. the men you bid should be carefully evaluated and selected whether you are bmp or traditional. the best chapters, traditional or bmp, have some of the highest recruitment standards.

to say that gpa and numbers count more than brotherly love is way out of line. you are taking things way out of context. think about things this way: if a brother has "brotherly love" toward you and the chapter shouldn't he uphold the standards of the fraternity? then he should then be held accountable for the gpa levels set by the fraternity. and, in turn, a brother who does not hold another brother up to the standards set forth also does not have tru "brotherly love". and the whole numbers thing, you have to have numbers to run a fraternity. numbers are stressed by traditional and bmp. some of the largest chapters in the national are traditional. numbers is important across the board.

the bmp was introduced to sigma phi epsilon in the wrong manner. 'forcing' chapters to convert or get shut down was the worst thing the national chapter could possibly do. because with that, the bmp came with negative connotations that have stuck.

we are sigep. we have always been different. we should not be afraid of the balanced man ideal or program. if traditional works for you and your chapter than more power to you. but to say that other fraternities think we are less because of it is ridiculous. with our roots we have shown to be innovative and groundbreaking. the balanced man ideal is the next step. it is not a coincidence that tons of other fraternities have copied this model and applied it accordingly. we should be proud of who we are, and the direction we are going.

[GAFU SC Alpha]

Originally Posted by sigepsal

the bmp was introduced to sigma phi epsilon in the wrong manner. 'forcing' chapters to convert or get shut down was the worst thing the national chapter could possibly do. because with that, the bmp came with negative connotations that have stuck.

Well I agreed with ONE thing you said. Well put. You make an excellent, and unheard, point. Now what to do about it?! Any bright ideas?

Your rant also failed to address other things like "Why are BMP chapters suck stuck-up dicks?" (not always, but very often)

You said BMP demolishes small cliques like "pledgeclasses." Those are not cliques (or clickes are you so "eloquently" misspelled it) nor are they SMALL. I'd hardly say 30+ guys is a small clique. They are gentleman, often of the same age, who help one another through the process thus forming life-long bonds -simliar to what they will hold with the rest of the fraternity. Yeah... you go erradicate those... good thinking.

but to say that other fraternities think we are less because of it is ridiculous

This is not ridiculous. Go talk to fraternities at UGA, or Richmond and ask what they think about SigEp. Better yet, ask some sorority girls.

the balanced man ideal is the next step. it is not a coincidence that tons of other fraternities have copied this model and applied it accordingly.

Like who??? Cite some examples! (You didn't ever work for Enron, did you?)

It would really suck if my beloved fraternity got the National repuation equivalent to that of someone like TKE.

[sigepsal]

[QUOTE=GAFU SC Alpha]Well I agreed with ONE thing you said. Well put. You make an excellent, and unheard, point. Now what to do about it?! Any bright ideas?

yes... i have a great idea... we educate people on what the balanced man program truly is and what it means... because a lot of the statements made show that many people don't know what it really is.


Your rant also failed to address other things like "Why are BMP chapters suck stuck-up dicks?" (not always, but very often)

you are making assumptions about bmp chapters. i could have made assumptions about traditional chapters hazing, but i don't. because that is not what traditional chapters stand for and that is not what they are about. bmp chapters are not about being stuck up, they are about making men better (what i thought our fraternity was about the whole time).

You said BMP demolishes small cliques like "pledgeclasses." Those are not cliques (or clickes are you so "eloquently" misspelled it) nor are they SMALL. I'd hardly say 30+ guys is a small clique. They are gentleman, often of the same age, who help one another through the process thus forming life-long bonds -simliar to what they will hold with the rest of the fraternity. Yeah... you go erradicate those... good thinking.

but why separate those 30+ guys from the rest of the fraternity? because they were born at a later date? or because they decided to join after other men. they can still do things together as a class, but why separate them as a whole.


This is not ridiculous. Go talk to fraternities at UGA, or Richmond and ask what they think about SigEp. Better yet, ask some sorority girls.

this has nothing to do with the bmp. this has to do with the members of those fraternities and them blaming the bmp for that. go talk to other fraternities at Oregon State or LMU (and I am sure there are a ton more). Or better yet, ask some of the girls there. They will tell you how SigEp dominates those campuses even though they have a BMP program


Like who??? Cite some examples! (You didn't ever work for Enron, did you?)

LOL. Examples include: Sigma Nu's LEAD, Phi Tau's "Total Man Program" and their "Building Men of Character", SAE's True Gentlemen Program. And, as stated in earlier posts, sororities have also jumped on the bandwagon. Fraternities across the board have slowly moved to some type of development program similar to the BMP, even if they are not calling it something specific.

at no point did i ever say bmp was better than traditional. as i said before, if traditional works for you, than that is what works. but the bmp is working for a lot of chapters all around the nation. and, because of that, and because of the lack of education about the bmp i think it is irresponsible to criticize it without fully knowing it.

i think i answered most of your questions....

[raider59]

This fall I will be going through Epsilon rite (full initiation). My observations after a year of new membership:

Things I like about the BMP:
-no hazing = no bodily harm or trips to the ER, no resentment towards actives
-required participation in IMs and community service
-required participation in house officer cabinets
-actives were nice to us and I didn't have to spend half a year being treated like I were less than a person
-The house projects are probably my favorite part of the BMP. Instead of destructive hazing, each of our sigma classes leaves their mark on our house in the form of a constructive project such as chapter tables, lawn repair, etc.

Things I don't:
-the EDGE "leadership program" was an absolute waste of time for me and every sigma from my school that went with me. The only thing it taught me was that people from my school are more well-adjusted than people from other schools.
-The aforementioned holier-than-thou attitude. Sucks.
-On top of that last point... it's become clear that there are a few people in my house who joined SigEp with the mindset that it was more of an honor society than a social fraternity. This is a bullshit attitude and it needs to stop.
-The things we can't do: "responsible" hazing. This fall when I'm fully initiated, I can't half-jokingly bark orders at sigmas to do kegstands or shots while singing the songs (as was done to me) for fear of having our charter pulled. I am told that scavenger hunts, described to me as the most entertaining event of pledgeship, might be off limits. I am not a fan of the zero-tolerance policy.
-The length of time it takes to be fully initiated: more or less twice as long as a traditional pledge period.
-The minimum GPA for recruitment: I understand that we want to stay on top of everyone academically, but you can't tell me that a potential with a 2.7 coming out of high school will wreck our house while a 3.0 guy is the perfect fit.
-Number one problem with the BMP as it applies to my chapter: apathy. The reason I wasn't as close to some of my sigma class as I would have liked is that some of them just flat out didn't show up to shit. They'd appear for parties... and that's all I would see of them. Not even coming to chapter. And we can't do anything about it. We can't kick them out because as per BMP we're not allowed to blackball sigmas. There shouldn't have to be an incentive to show up for house events, but it's a really aggravating situation for me right now.


Well, the cons list looks longer than the pros... but I didn't join SigEp because of the Balanced Man Program. I joined because I saw potential for real friendship in the brothers of the house. I in no way look down upon traditional chapters; rather, I embrace them as brothers, as I hope they would me. BMP or not, you'll find me partying at the house every weekend.

Thanks for reading. Thoughts, comments and suggestions appreciated.

[sfebop]

Hey Bros,
I want to start off by saying I'm from a traditional chapter. I went to conclave last summer and CLA's this fall (Pittsburgh). A lot of the guys at my chapter HATE and I mean HATE the Balanced Man Program, and I'll admit before conclave I was in full agreement. But the truth is every chapter is going to be different regardless. I met BM guys at both Conclave and CLA's that could hang longer then I could, and had great personalities. The problem seems to be that there are a lot of chapters that don't really care who they let in, which can be both a good and bad thing. If a irresponsible chapter lets in irresponsible brothers, well, they loose their charter. However, if BM chapters let in guys that are only doing it for their resume and "Fuck It, I didn't have to pledge" (it's in quotations because some at Conclave actually said that to me); they get rewarded for having high numbers.

From a personal standpoint though, I really like being a pledging chapter; here’s why. Over the 8 weeks that I pledged I got really close with my pledge brothers, we got to know each other and constantly had to depend on one another. There wasn't a moment that we weren't together, not by force, but because after 2 weeks, we genuinely really liked each other. Now that we're in we are always functioning as "one" unit. To me, that is truly amazing, especially considering none of us knew each other beforehand. I can't see how this type of bonding can be re-created through the BMP. Really "hazing" is such a harsh word. I never once felt like I was "hazed", everything I did was done not because I liked the brothers, but rather because I loved my pledge brothers, and once we all shared a common trust, we realized how the guys already in felt. I don’t know, sounds a bit gay, whatever, that’s my only gripe with the BMP.

Fraternally.
Tom

[SigEpBrother2K8]

Originally Posted by sfebop

Hey Bros,
I want to start off by saying I'm from a traditional chapter. I went to conclave last summer and CLA's this fall (Pittsburgh). A lot of the guys at my chapter HATE and I mean HATE the Balanced Man Program, and I'll admit before conclave I was in full agreement. But the truth is every chapter is going to be different regardless. I met BM guys at both Conclave and CLA's that could hang longer then I could, and had great personalities. The problem seems to be that there are a lot of chapters that don't really care who they let in, which can be both a good and bad thing. If a irresponsible chapter lets in irresponsible brothers, well, they loose their charter. However, if BM chapters let in guys that are only doing it for their resume and "Fuck It, I didn't have to pledge" (it's in quotations because some at Conclave actually said that to me); they get rewarded for having high numbers.

From a personal standpoint though, I really like being a pledging chapter; here’s why. Over the 8 weeks that I pledged I got really close with my pledge brothers, we got to know each other and constantly had to depend on one another. There wasn't a moment that we weren't together, not by force, but because after 2 weeks, we genuinely really liked each other. Now that we're in we are always functioning as "one" unit. To me, that is truly amazing, especially considering none of us knew each other beforehand. I can't see how this type of bonding can be re-created through the BMP. Really "hazing" is such a harsh word. I never once felt like I was "hazed", everything I did was done not because I liked the brothers, but rather because I loved my pledge brothers, and once we all shared a common trust, we realized how the guys already in felt. I don’t know, sounds a bit gay, whatever, that’s my only gripe with the BMP.

Fraternally.
Tom

Hey Brother Tom,

I'm from NV Alpha and we're a BM chapter. I have to disagree with you on both points you just made, reason being that the BMP is kind of like an ongoing pledging program. When done correctly it provides all the positives of pledging without the negatives such as hazing, etc. (You might have been OK with it, as I probably would have been as well, but hazing is hazing and the public/law doesn't look at it kindly. Neither does nationals.)
Also, instead of pledging for 8 weeks and your 100% in, you have to earn your way through the rites or passage (alongside the brothers from your class and under the guidance of the older brothers, which is extremely bonding, no homo.). This is a very long process, sometimes lasting years. Over this time the BMP has you do personally beneficial things to prove yourself, e.g. community service, written tests on chapter and national history, etc. Not sure if traditional chapters are that way but isn't proving yourself to the fraternity the definition of pledging?
As far as letting in guys that only want in for something to put on a resume, you will find that the BMP will weed out those guys just as well as pledging because the BMP requires constant input of time and energy to remain in the chapter, again I feel I must add, when done correctly.
A lot of guys have problems with the BMP because of the way that some chapters run the program. However, these chapters probably weren't doing it correctly. When ran well and as it was meant to be, the program is a great way to educate new members, bond brothers, weed out non-SigEps and is one of the biggest reasons SigEp is the leader among fraternities nationwide. It's what sets us apart from other fraternities and looks great to the public. Other fraternities are beginning to model themselves on our example with the BMP and copying is the greatest compliment. Plus nationals will love your chapter for it .
Case and point, when done correctly the BMP offers all the benefits of pledging without the negatives that might or might not be present but are associated with a pledge-based fraternity. Thanks Animal House .

In Brotherly Love,
Brother Nate Janning, NV Alpha

[SigEpBrother2K8]

I joined SPE just this last semester for three reasons:
1) The guys
2) The brotherhood and networking
and 3) Sigma Phi Epsilon is blazing new trails and changing how Greek life is conducted and looked at from the community.

The BMP is one of the largest ways we have shown our innovation and now I am hearing of other Greek nationals talking about following in our footsteps. I respect traditional chapters (as long as the hazing is kept to an absolute minimum); how could I not, they founded the fraternity. However, I think the BMP is one of the best things that has happened to this fraternity and the Greek community as a whole.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by SigEpBrother2K8

I respect traditional chapters (as long as the hazing is kept to an absolute minimum)

Just because a chapter isn't using the BMP, doesn't mean they are hazing in any way. We all know what happens when we assume.

[SigEpBrother2K8]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Just because a chapter isn't using the BMP, doesn't mean they are hazing in any way. We all know what happens when we assume.

Agreed wholeheartedly.

[TraditionOrBust]

When every guy from their respective balanced man chapters goes through train every week with their pledge brothers, ill start referring to them as my fraternity brothers.

[bowsandtoes]

My problem wouldn't be so much with the 'pledge' process at BMP chapters as it is with the Rush one. Quite honestly, from the BMP chapters I've seen they don't get quality guys. And then when I go home I have to listen to friends from other colleges bash the Sig Ep chapters there, and I know at heart that they're right. There's a reason they calls those chapters "Sigma Phi Everyone".

And to reiterate a point made earlier, I already finished Boy Scouts. All that personal growth stuff was great back in high school. I joined Sig Ep for the brotherhood and camaraderie.

[SigEpTnEta]

Ok, for everyone addressing RLC and freaking out about it, RLC is not a new name for fraternity houses. A Residential Learning Community is a program that chapters are encouraged to include in their house. We're currently working on implementing one, but it's a lot of hard work and red tape. Quite a few chapters I've met even have RLC's located somewhere other than their house. Basically you guys assuming it's just some new name for fraternity houses reflects your knowledge about new policy.

Secondly, I am a member of a BMP chapter in the South, and we do nothing but mesh well with any traditional chapters we meet. I just rushed last fall, and I will be hopefully going through Epsilon soon. I can fairly say that I am ignorant about what our ritual is really about right now, and I'm glad for this. I want to be able to go through Epsilon and know it was all worth it. WAITING 7 MONTHS, NOT JUST 1 SEMESTER IS WORTH IT. They aren't just giving me my letters. We have many requirements, many hours of library, gym, and community service hours to complete, we interview all of our brothers and learn unique things about each one. As a rush class, we are encouraged to implement weekly brotherhood events like football, soccer, or even just going out to eat. We've done nothing but forge bonds the past 7 months we've been in. For any traditional chapter to tell me that I'm not a real brother, they are full of shit.

Also, as a fraternity, the SigEp chapter at my school is on top of everything. We have the highest grades, win the intramurals, run SGA (3 of 4 officers are SigEp, the last is former SigEp). We have the kind of parties that everyone comes to (even the other fraternities), and we have the kind of house that girls are never worried about coming to.

I have been to Carlson, and I am a frequent traveler, so I've met many guys from both walks of the SigEp life, and while I have met some really....really weird BMP guys, I've also met just about as many Traditional guys that are complete fucking douchebags (1 chapter actually assigned one of my rush brothers a pledge before my brother was even all the way through). For us, we follow BMP principles, but as a fraternity, we certainly don't just make it a cake walk. We make sure each guy we choose not only has a stable (not genius, not fucking retarded) GPA, will be respectable around campus, and will be a strong asset during intramurals.

I've finished my rant now. Hopefully anyone that replies to this will have read the whole thing.

[bowsandtoes]

Every balanced man keeps pointing to the same reasons why they're a good chapter. Last time I checked GPA wasn't a measure of brotherhood. Neither were intramural standings.