National VS Local Debate

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by AOX81
Last time I checked weren't working on a math problem... For some chapters your definition will work...for mine it won't. Just because YOU define something a certain way doesn't mean that we all have to agree with it.

Its not just my definition. This has always been the working definition in the greek world. If you have two chapters, at two different schools, then you aren't unique to that campus, and you aren't local. You can call yourself local, but you're not.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by AOX81
I noticed that you stated "older edition" ...definitions change over time.

Nice try. The current edition doesn't address locals at all.

[AOX81]

Originally posted by russellwarshay
Its not just my definition. This has always been the working definition in the greek world. If you have two chapters, at two different schools, then you aren't unique to that campus, and you aren't local. You can call yourself local, but you're not.

I don't care what you call my organization...you're not a part of it...

I know what I am and I'm proud of it.

[AOX81]

Originally posted by russellwarshay
Nice try. The current edition doesn't address locals at all.

Well if the current edition doesn't address locals at all then how do you know for sure what the current definition is Mr. Big Pickypants?

[Sister Havana]

Originally posted by chideltjen
So for the sake of the discussion, can we just assume a "local" organization is one that is not included in list of your Panhel/IFC/PanHel/NIC groups? Regardless if they have 1 chapter or 50 billion? I mean the term "local" is something we are all familiar with, why not just keep it?

Alpha Phi Omega is not included in the list of Panhel/IFC/PanHel/NIC groups, but is nowhere near a local. Just being picky here.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by AOX81
Well if the current edition doesn't address locals at all then how do you know for sure what the current definition is Mr. Big Pickypants?

Ah, your argument is so strong that you have to call me names.

I have access to older editions of Baird's, before they dropped locals because it was taken over by the IFC. Also, among professionals that I've spoken with, they make the clear distinction between locals and regionals. Also, I've got two greek life advisors that serve under me in Phi Psi, and constant access to several more. I do talk about these issues with all of them.

Making up new definitions, to fit your image, only muddles up discourse. That serves no one, and is just extremely illiberal.

[MTSUGURL]

I realize that some view Baird's as the Bible of all things Greek, and maybe I should go find one and memorize it cover to cover so I know all proper terms, professional orgs, etc... BUT, can it tell me anything about specific locals? Why is the definition even important? I know there are some sororities that call themselves national and have 3-5 chapters. They have the intent of being national. I know of others who have 3 chapters and call themselves local. What is the importance?

SO.... What are the pros and cons? I think we can all name 500 pros of our orgs. If you love your org, and if it's right for you, then that is what ultimately matters. Not whether a book that some of us have never seen and doesn't address us anymore defines us as.

[chideltjen]

Originally posted by Sister Havana
Alpha Phi Omega is not included in the list of Panhel/IFC/PanHel/NIC groups, but is nowhere near a local. Just being picky here.

My bad. My mind was racing so I was trying to think of a way to group the traditionally known nationals vs locals. That was all I can think of at the time.

Seriously... this thread is turning into the greek world according to russ...

I mean... if ya don't like the word "local" and how it's loosely defined... and no one seems to understand the concept of being regional (that's seriously gotta be an east coast thing cuz you never here that around here...) then maybe we should just nix the whole "local" name all together. Call us "banana hammock" for all I care. I am in a sorority... a GREEK LETTER ORGANIZATION... and I am in a chapter at Sac State. The end.

[AOX81]

Lets look at it this way. Some people do think that Baird's is the Bible...many people interpret the Bible different ways.

I think you are missing my point. I am trying to agree to disagree. I don't care if you define something differently than I do.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink...I'm just not feeling thirsty today.

[AOX81]

Originally posted by chideltjen
Seriously... this thread is turning into the greek world according to russ...

That's because he knows EVERYTHING and he can NEVER be wrong. Didn't you know that?

[decadence]

Originally opined by Russellwarshay:
Don'ty be so quick to pass judgement on my outlook. There are actually a few (literally) locals that I respect.

Pick up any older edition of Baird's, and it will clearly define locals as local to one, and only one campus. 1=1. Its really that simple.

The behavior of locals, and regionals, are different. Even though many regionals don't have liability insurance, they do behave more responsibly than locals.

Also, in the Northeast, where there probably more locals and regionals than in any other part of the country, many of the locals are former chapters of national groups that behave in a terrible way.

Its really in the best interest of a small regional fraternal organization to not be classified with the groups that pervade the SUNY system, for example.

And quite simply, changing definitions of commonly accepted terms is highly anti-intellectual, and is counter-productive to rational discourse.

If you don't stop I'll take away all your copies of Baird's manual and make you cry . Just kidding but honestly your posts on this do smack a little of didacticism.
Whilst there may well be irresponsible locals, irresponsible chapters of 'nationals may also crop up from time to time to be dealt with e.g. link. As has been said before, if a national chapter was acting unforgivedly they could still present a perfectly pleasant picture to visiting internationals officers until a reported incident happened. To use 'local' as some sort of buzzword for lawless group/accident waiting to happen is unfortunate. The greatest problem is that such an approach attempts to pigeonhole the issue of hazing onto a particular sector of greek life and hazing is an issue that ALL greeks and non-greek student orgs need to be aware of and mindful of. Yes, an international GLO structure can (and does) help substantially but proper procedure begins at home (campus level). Idiots live outside of locals too and while you may say that without an international board to mandate remove of questionable practices labelled tradition a group has no motivation to do so, this belies the fact that local orgs include responsible memebrs, do have a desire not to stagnate, to ensure members are kept safe, to work with alumni, to adapt to a changing world.

To take your argument to it's (ill)ogical conclusion then if a two chaptered GLO - which you posit to be regional only - lost one chapter for a time or permanently then it would be local therefore almost certainly it would 'suddenly' be a risk managment/hazing hotbed irrespective of any risk management policies and procedures it may have in place; which can be equally adopted by any local.
Equally, meanings both do change over time - one of the characteristics of a living language such as English as opposed to an extinct language like Latin, and are not always exhaustive.

I really must stop procrastinating and go do my term papers.

[33girl]

rock on, decadence. Didacticism sucks!!!

Originally posted by russellwarshay
Its really in the best interest of a small regional fraternal organization to not be classified with the groups that pervade the SUNY system, for example.

But umm, the groups that pervade the SUNY system (Agonian, Clionian etc) ARE small regionals...by your definition, as they have more than one chapter. You just contradicted your own argument.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by 33girl
But umm, the groups that pervade the SUNY system (Agonian, Clionian etc) ARE small regionals...by your definition, as they have more than one chapter. You just contradicted your own argument.

But umm, try again. I did anything but contradict myself. Agonian, Clionian, etc. are regionals, and they are not what pervades the SUNY greek systems.

Take a look at just two SUNY greek systems:
http://www.oneonta.edu/development/h...greek_life.asp
http://www2.plattsburgh.edu/invoke.c...od=displayFull

There are more fraternities than sororities at both of these campuses, but you wouldn't know this from these web pages. Both campuses have local, unrecognized fraternities, and the combined total of these fraternities, at just these two schools, exceeds the number of combined chapters of Agonian, Clionian, etc. This is what pervades the SUNY system. Formally recognized fraternities that were derecognized because they refused to reform. They did not go away. They are still sending pledges to hospitals.

[33girl]

Dude, you're talking about UNRECOGNIZED fraternities. On that Oneonta web page, I see 4 national sororities, an Agonian chapter, an Arethusa chapter, a local with one chapter called Pi Delta Chi and 2 national fraternities seeking recognition. That is what SUNY recognizes, so that's what's in the SUNY system.

I don't know how unrecognized fraternities got into this conversation...I don't think Jen or Amy or anyone else had that in their head but you. The issue of unrecognized groups has absolutely nothing to do with whether AOX can call themselves a local!!!! There's an unrecognized chapter of Acacia at shadokat's school...I guess you would call them a local. They're not. They're an unrecognized Acacia chapter.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by 33girl
Dude, you're talking about UNRECOGNIZED fraternities. On that Oneonta web page, I see 4 national sororities, an Agonian chapter, an Arethusa chapter, a local with one chapter called Pi Delta Chi and 2 national fraternities seeking recognition. That is what SUNY recognizes, so that's what's in the SUNY system.

I don't know how unrecognized fraternities got into this conversation...I don't think Jen or Amy or anyone else had that in their head but you. The issue of unrecognized groups has absolutely nothing to do with whether AOX can call themselves a local!!!! There's an unrecognized chapter of Acacia at shadokat's school...I guess you would call them a local. They're not. They're an unrecognized Acacia chapter.

Guess what, the recognized sororities at Oneonta still have socials with the unrecognized fraternities. They exist, and they're part of the problem. Also, don't be so quick to make assumptions about how I define things. An unrecognized chapter of a national fraternity is not a local, and they are rare.

No matter what AOX wnats to call themselves, they are a regional. What is so difficult to accept about the definition of a local? The line beteween a regional and a national may be blurry, but the line between local and anything else is very, very clear. It is a single chapter that is unique to that campus. The definition is very fixed, and should remain that way so that there can be real discourse. If AOX needs to define themselves in a way that is inconsistent with realitry, then their deluded outlook would explain why their mother chapter is now facing extinction. They need to see reality for what it is, not their fantasy world of being a multiple chapter local.