Hazing is good

[DeltAlum]

Brandeis,

Hazing is illegal. It is against the rules of every National Greek organization we're aware of.

Taken to extremes, it has killed people.

And, by the way, on this forum, we try to show some amount of respect to our fellow posters whether we agree with them or not. Just as I'm sure you would not care to be told to "shut up," neither do we.

"Nuff said."

DeltAlum

[mccoyred]

Hardships (ie pledging) can be endured w/o hazing. They are not the same!

Originally posted by Brandeis:
to whomever thinks that hazing is bad. Shut up! It's people like you that are going to cry and whine about every hardship that comes your way. Don't you realize that hazing is what separates the gdis from the greeks?! You have to go through the appropriate rites and traditions, like everyone else before you. In addition, to get something good, one must go through some difficulties- otherwise everyone would be doing it! And don't even attempt to compare slavery and hazing. nuff said

------------------
MCCOYRED
Mu Psi '86
BaltCo Alumnae

Dynamic...Salient...Temperate...Since 1913

[TxGirl]

N2

As you are blessed with anonimity (sp?) on this site, tell us what your organization does that is considered hazing, but is an essential part of your brotherhood. You go on and on about how great and strong it makes your chapter but you don't say what it is.

As I don't recall see your chapter name or university and you have said your email is not listed, why don't you just tell us what you do?

[SigmaChiCard]

I don't condone, or agree with it
But I can attest to Physcological Manipulation experiments, and various experiments in general behavioral physchology that Hazing establishes a cognitively dissonant belief that the final goal is so much greater than it otherwise would have been due entirely to the act of hazing. It's not the getting beaten part, or does it even have to be anything physical, as long as getting through it is VERY VERY difficult.

Very basic examples are
you get a brand new car for free or
you save your money working for 5 years to get one not as good

which one do you take better care of....the one you bought, because you convince yourself it's better because you just really put yourself out a lot to even get it, and even if before you knew it wasn't better, that perspective shifts and you now believe the one you bought was better.....the theory of cognitive dissonance as it backs the validity of his statement.

However, hazing also demoralizes basic principles concerning my founding, and I imagine the founding of most all other fraternities/sororities. It cannot create true brotherhood because no one can want to see there brother in agony so much that he will put him there himself. It creates this strong brotherhood, but as the theory of CD implies, it creates it on false pretenses. You convince yourself you and your brothers are tight, because if you're not...then why the hell did you endure the pain. A startling reality before your eyes! This isn't me talking, so don't take it too personal, it's the theory of cognitive dissonance against you hazers and hazees. So quit beating people..this isn't eye fr an eye...it's your brothers! would you hit your real brother or father to make him respect you more? hehe, probably not!

Cory

[Christi130]

To all you people who are against hazing, I can say that I see your points. But honestly, I pledged last semester and was hazed. every sorority and fraternity on our campus hazes hard and are proud of that fact. The only fraternity that doesn't haze their "new members" are a joke on campus. go anywhere and you'll see their letters written on bathroom walls or elevators with the words fake or sucks after them. What I'm trying to say is that they have zero respect. You can't just start your own fraternity and have people join or being Greek would not be special. What's so great about it if anyone with money could "join". that to me is buying your friends. I am proud of the fat that I pledged hard. You cannot possibly know how close I am to my pledge sisters. They are my best friends and now that I am watching the current pledge class from this side, I realize why everything was done to me... to build the bonds between the girls and their pledge sisters. You people keep saying that hazing puts distance between pledges and members. This is not accurate at all. I love every one of my sisters, the only thing pledging did was make me rely on my pledge sisters for strength during pledging. I know what it means to be a sister. Without the pledging you are simply joing a club in which anyone with extra cash could get into. My sorority believes in quality, not quantity in girls. My whole point is that pledging creates a bond between sisters or brothers that no one can understand unless they themselves have went through it.

[damasa]

Originally posted by Christi130
My whole point is that pledging creates a bond between sisters or brothers that no one can understand unless they themselves have went through it.

Exactly...so in a sense..your post is a contradtiction. Pledging is what forms a bond between the brothers and sisters of the pledge class. In some cases, hazing might help, in others, it might hurt. No one can really tell of the true affects of hazing, some ppl would take being hazed differently.

About the comment of not knowing how close you are to your pledge sisters, I'd have to disagree. I know, I'm probably that close with some of the guys that I pledged with. They are my "boys." But, I also am just as close with many of the other members, so it goes hand in hand.

d

[SigmaChiCard]

Christi
If hazing is the reason you're so close with your sisters, then your ritual must be really lacking. You do, however, illustrate my point very clearly. Hazing creates a dissonance that makes you think you really deserve it and its great because you got hazed. haha. Tricks on you! You now feel that everyone should be hazed to bond. I'm sorry for what is evidently you're entire campus, that your chapter participation in ritual does not do that for you. It may prove that you might wish to reevaluate your ethics. Would you haze your best friend in high school to get closer to her? That'd be a bit strange, wouldn't it.

And not to insult your intelligence (entirely), but let me see if I'm getting this point of yours correct. Because some orgs don't haze, anyone with money can get in, yet if your hazed, only the best of the best get in? Is this so? So, the people who let themselves be hazed, and take your shit for the first full semester in school which is when more than ever they need to be learning and growing are the ones who are going to go out and be productive members of society and for your GLO. And it's the (speaking generally) meat heads who love/don't mind getting hazed, so that's what GLO's eventually fill with, and creates the stereotypes we've got, add perpetuates them....you are truly blind.

My thoughts are scattered now, I will try to reply less frustrated later, but to end...

Hazing is about creating friendships on psychologically-inspired false pretenses. I'd say think about that, but you're predispositioned against it already. haha. I'm sorry.

[shadokat]

To comment on Christi's post, our campus was just like that, except I was in the one sorority that didn't haze. And let me tell you something....money had nothing to do with our membership. We took quality women who wanted to belong to a quality organization and support our ideals.

You say because you were hazed, you're so much closer to your pledge sisters. Well, being 5 years out of school, I can tell you that I still talk to my pledge sisters at least once a week via email or the phone. We have semi-annual get togethers at the beach or something, and that didn't come because someone hazed us. It came because we all support and believe in our ritual and ideals. Many sororities on my campus believed in earning letters. We believed in the same....just via learning about the values and traditions, the ritual and ideals, that go with being a sister, and living your life by those ideas each day.

Finally, while we were going through our new member program, we were asked to do many things, but one that was most important was respect for sisters, ourselves and our letters. Hazing doesn't respect new members...it forces them to bond together to survive a period of time, and it also binds them in a resentment towards those who hazed them. I've seen it firsthand through friends who pledged hazing sororities, and it's truly a shame. I'm glad my sisterhood bonds came through respect, love and ritual. THAT'S what brother/sisterhood is all about.

[archangel689]

Except you have the people like myself who respect themselves to much to be hazed...

[TEKEISSTRONG]

LET ME GIVE YOU A LITTLE BACKGROUND ON MYSELF.

I AM A COMBAT VET (DESERT STORM - 1ST RANGER BATTALLION) WHO USED HIS GI BILL BENEFITS TO GO TO SCHOOL AT A MID-ATLANTIC STATE UNIVERSITY.

I PLEDGED TKE - AND I WAS UNDERWHELMED BY THE EXPERIENCE. I FELT THAT THE PLEDGE PROGRAM NEEDED REFINING TO STRENGTHEN THE TYPE OF MEN WE NEEDED.

I BECAME PLEDGEMASTER (HEGEMON) AND IMMEDIATELY INSTITUTED MORE MILITARY TECHNIQUES IN THE PLEDGE PROGRAM. OUR PLEDGES GET VERY LITTLE SLEEP, ( 4 HOURS/NIGHT), MUST GREET EVERY FRATER THEY SEE, CARRY A BRICK WITH TKE PAINTED ON IT, MUST GET EVERY FRATER'S SIGNATURE 3 TIMES A WEEK, HAVE EARLY MORNING BONDING RUNS, AND ENDURE ZEBRA WEEK. ZEBRA IS ONE WEEK WHERE THE PLEDGES EAT ONE MRE A DAY, WHILE GETTING NO SLEEP. IT IS HARD. WE LOSE ABOUT 80% OF OUR RUSH EVERY SEMESTER, BUT WE EASILY GET THE HIGH NUMBERS TO RUSH US.

WE HAVE A REP MUCH LIKE THE ELITE FORCES WHOM I SERVED WITH IN THE MILITARY. WE ARE VERY SELECTIVE AND NEITHER CONFIRM OR DENY WHAT WE DO. WE HAVE THE "TEKE MYSTIQUE"

I GRADUATED WITH A 3.80 GPA IN JUST THREE YEARS, PURCHASED A SMALL BUSINESS AND HAVE GROWN IT INTO A MEDIUM SIZE BUSINESS WITH ABOUT 80 EMPLOYEES. I HAVE STAYED ON AT CHAPTER ADVISOR. WE HAVE KEPT THE PLEDGE PROGRAM HARD.

WE HAVE AN ATTORNEY ON RETAINER. HE COSTS OUR CHAPTER $400/SEMESTER. I MATCH THE CHAPTER CONTRIBUTION FOR THE ATTORNEY. HE HAS BEEN TO OUR ADMINISTRATION AND HAS POINTED OUT THAT MOST OF THE HAZING POLICIES VIOLATE THE FIRST AMENDMENT. AS A RESULT THE ADMINISTRATION HAS TURNED THE OTHER WAY AS A RESULT OF WHAT WE DO.

OUR FRATERS KNOW THEIR RIGHTS. IF ANYTHING HAPPENS TO THE FRATERNITY - THEY KNOW:

1. YOU DON'T HAVE TO SAY ANYTHING TO EVERYONE.
2. CALL THE ATTORNEY IMMEDIATELY. WE PAY THE MONEY, SO THAT IS NOT A PROBLEM.

WE HAVE HAD TWO INCIDENTS WITH THE POLICE THE PAST FIVE YEARS WITH HAZING INVESTIGATIONS - AND WE HAVE BEEN CLEARED BOTH TIMES - BECAUSE WE KNOW OUR RIGHTS. WE KEEP THE BROTHERHOOD SACRED.

PLEDGING A FRATERNITY SHOULD BE HARD. BUT EVERYONE OF THOSE WHO HAVE COMPLETED OUR PROGRAM WILL TELL YOU THEY ARE PROUD OF IT.

WHAT DOES A PLEDGE LEARN? THEY LEARN THAT THE HUMAN BODY CAN ENDURE A LOT MORE THAN THEY THINK THEY CAN. THEY ALSO KNOW THAT HARD WORK AND PERSEVERANCE IS REWARDED.

SO, IF YOU WANT TO BE IN A NON-HAZING GLO, THAT'S UP TO YOU. I PREFER EARNING LETTERS. SO, RESPECT US FOR WHAT WE HAVE EARNED.

TEKE IS STRONG

[shadokat]

Originally posted by TEKEISSTRONG

I BECAME PLEDGEMASTER (HEGEMON) AND IMMEDIATELY INSTITUTED MORE MILITARY TECHNIQUES IN THE PLEDGE PROGRAM. OUR PLEDGES GET VERY LITTLE SLEEP, ( 4 HOURS/NIGHT), MUST GREET EVERY FRATER THEY SEE, CARRY A BRICK WITH TKE PAINTED ON IT, MUST GET EVERY FRATER'S SIGNATURE 3 TIMES A WEEK, HAVE EARLY MORNING BONDING RUNS, AND ENDURE ZEBRA WEEK. ZEBRA IS ONE WEEK WHERE THE PLEDGES EAT ONE MRE A DAY, WHILE GETTING NO SLEEP. IT IS HARD. WE LOSE ABOUT 80% OF OUR RUSH EVERY SEMESTER, BUT WE EASILY GET THE HIGH NUMBERS TO RUSH US.

What do new members learn from getting very little sleep, carrying a brick around, and eating only one meal a day? If you want them to bond in a constructive way, send them to a survival camp or a team building program.

And during all of this "boot camp", when do your new members learn what TKE is really all about? Your founding principle is "to aid college men in mental, moral, and social development.", as stated on your website? Also stated in your principles: "We believe that the essential elements of true brotherhood are love, charity, and esteem; love, that binds our hearts with the sturdy chords of fraternal affection; charity, that is impulsive to see virtues in a brother and slow to reprove his faults; esteem, that is respectful to the honest convictions of others and that refrains from treading upon that which is sacred to spirit and conscience;" When is this emphasized and learned? During the early morning bonding runs??

I apologize if this sounds harsh, but I truly believe you do TKE a disservice by airing your hazing in public, and saying it is what makes your chapter. And those of us who weren't hazed...we earned our letters and respect our tradition through love of sisterhood/brotherhood and living up to our ideals and ritual.

[The1calledTKE]

I agree with Shadokat. Most TKE chapters don't haze. The extent that your chapter goes is horrible. TKE is not the miliatry and you should not treat it as such. TKE is a social fraternity. Social is the main word. If you are about the miliatry you should let us all know your chapter name. I know you must have that miltary honor. If you think it is right to haze the way you do take it to internationals and the court and lets see who is right.

[GmuTeke]

TKEISSTRONG,

the first amendment reads:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

How are your school's anti-hazing rules in violation of this amendment? I don't mean to be angry here, and I really would like to hear this argument. I'm all for freedom of religion, speech, press and assembly, but did the Founders(of the country and of TKE) really want us to paddle our pledges and have that "right" guaranteed under the constitution?

[SigmaChiCard]

I'm going to go out on a limb and call TKEISSTRONG's bluff....he's not really a TKE

[ErikaXO]

I agree completely that hazing in the true sense of the word must not be perpetuated. However, I must say that a lot of great bonding-type activities and fun traditions have been eliminated in the name of anti-hazing. I think I mentioned a few on another thread, such as the fun Big Sis/Lil Sis scavenger hunt we used to have....nobody ever complained and it was a fun time for everyone.....nope, can't do that, "making" the pledges search all over (and pick up little notes and gifts from their big along the way) is hazing!!! As with so many other things, it has been taken to the extreme and ruined a lot of the special aspects of greek life. Please understand, I am not condoning true hazing, ie: scaring pledges, forcing them to do chores, etc, making them do embarrassing things such as walking around campus in goofy clothes, or otherwise hurting them. I am talking about perfectly inocuous things that have been wiped out (such as making a decorative paddle for your little to hang on her wall) because the implications might offend someone.