Depositions Underway In AKA Drowning Lawsuit

[12dn94dst]

Originally posted by Happydaysf91
Well, personally...I wouldn't want to see the undergrads go away...however, there is much liability involved if we keep them around and cannot figure out a way to curb liability.

Understanding what there is GREAT liability involved, we need to start figuring in a proactive sense what we're going to to keep our organizations in theire current format THEN if that doesn't work, start gradually cutting our losses a few chapters at a time. There's not need to punish all collegiate chapters for the misdeeds of a few members/chapters.

Originally posted by Happydaysf91
Furthermore, like others have stated, this will not eradicate 'hazing' all together. We have seen where hazing occurs on the graduate level as well.....

How true that is!

Originally posted by Happydaysf91
And as far as grad chapters/members and grad advisors.....you have to understand...they have lives too outside the organization. I used to be a grad advisor. And a good one! But the chapter I was over still was involved in hazing. I went to step shows, was at the fundraisers, community service activities, parties and etc. It's like raising children....you teach them to be good, outstanding citizens and tell them right from wrong and you send them into the world each day hoping and praying that they will make good, sound decisions. You can't watch them 24/7. Well, its the same with an undergrad chapter. You crossed the girls...have meetings, tell them not to haze and the consequences of such and etc. and you go home and hope and pray they will follow your organizations rules (rules they 'pledged' to abide by). However, like with your own kids, some are going to follow the rules and some are not. You cannot watch them 24/7.

Yes, grad members have lives outside of the organization. And yes, it's hard for ONE person, heck even two people to advise a chapter. But no one said it had to be just one or two people advising. Share the work with an advisory team & lighten the load.


I dunno, I've been reading various comments in various places and it seems like we're giving up. I personally do not feel that we've done anything SIGNIFICANT to lessen coprorate liability or to effectively revise current processes. Yes, posting disciplinary report are a start, but we need to do more. Changing mentality is a huge part of it. True, 'grad v undergrad" is not SUPPOSED to be apart of it, but it is. I keep hearing/reading "get rid of the undergrads" as if it's a cure all...well it's not.

Alumnae chapters are not in the "business" of generating new members. By calling for undergraduate chapters to be eliminated that would require a MAJOR overhaul of how we operate & function. IMO, it would be easier to resolve the "smaller" problem of limiting liability & discouraging hazing that it would to reorganize.

It doesn't make any sense to me that we can invest time to help those outside our organizations, but we don't/won't/can't invest that same time to save our own orgs. But again, that's just my opinion.

[dsmmi12]

Originally posted by 12dn94dst

Yes, grad members have lives outside of the organization. And yes, it's hard for ONE person, heck even two people to advise a chapter. But no one said it had to be just one or two people advising. Share the work with an advisory team & lighten the load.

I wish it were that easy. I have been trying to get an advisory Board for the past 3 years to work with ma and the chapter I advise. It seems as if WE dont see the need or the resposibility that WE have to reach back. And when I say we...I am especially speaking to sorors who pledged in collegiate chapters and had the privaledge of having an advisor so thier chapter could be sustained.

We talk a good game when it comes to "collective responsibility" But we dont walk the walk when it is time to attend the advisors training. OR EVERY single event of the chapter. We talk about the collegiates and the money they are costing us in liability. But are WE doing our part as well.

Before anyone even goes there...the chapter I advise was MW Region Chapter of the year won 3 Delta awards and 7 Greek Awards on thier campus, National Collegiate Soror of the year this year and I cant PAY anyone to be on the advisory team. (id do have 1 secondary advisor). SO having said this.....we need to figure out how we can first of all encourgae sorors to even take in the responsibility before we offer them as a solution!

It is sickening when I hear of a collegiate chapter who cannot be active due to the fact that there is no advisor. But that is a whole nother thread of discusion.

[Happydaysf91]

That is so true.....its like that in 'probably' all our organizations.

And I know that graduate members could help out more on that level...but that's a hard job in and of itself. A lot of members have families and/or careers. And yes, you can organize those boards, but those individuals 'know' that they don't have to participate 100% of the time. They pick and choose. And ultimately, the responsibility lies on the grad advisor. It's just like in chapters, you can't make Soror Sally participate in community service, fundraisers or go to a conference...she has to want to do and additionally, have the time to do so.

And as one lady put it, we have the time to help everyone but our undergrads.....I understand. But you have to realize in most of our chapters (speaking generally...I'm an AKA)...we only have a handful of movers and shakers that are living up to the true meaning of our pledges....participating in community service, going to conferences and etc. Those handful can't run the chapter as a whole, watch the undergrads day and night (exaggeration), take care of their families, have a career or etc.

I'm not making excuses for graduate members. There is room for improvement. However, I'm trying to figure out what exactly people want from graduate members? Even if we show up to everything, have an excellent mentorship program in place, extend the 'process'....hazing on the undergrad level could still possibly continue...because we can't be with them all day and all night.

[Love_Spell_6]

Originally posted by Happydaysf91
That is so true.....its like that in 'probably' all our organizations.

And I know that graduate members could help out more on that level...but that's a hard job in and of itself. A lot of members have families and/or careers. And yes, you can organize those boards, but those individuals 'know' that they don't have to participate 100% of the time. They pick and choose. And ultimately, the responsibility lies on the grad advisor. It's just like in chapters, you can't make Soror Sally participate in community service, fundraisers or go to a conference...she has to want to do and additionally, have the time to do so.

And as one lady put it, we have the time to help everyone but our undergrads.....I understand. But you have to realize in most of our chapters (speaking generally...I'm an AKA)...we only have a handful of movers and shakers that are living up to the true meaning of our pledges....participating in community service, going to conferences and etc. Those handful can't run the chapter as a whole, watch the undergrads day and night (exaggeration), take care of their families, have a career or etc.

I'm not making excuses for graduate members. There is room for improvement. However, I'm trying to figure out what exactly people want from graduate members? Even if we show up to everything, have an excellent mentorship program in place, extend the 'process'....hazing on the undergrad level could still possibly continue...because we can't be with them all day and all night.

Again, well said Happydaysf91.... I don't know how many on this board are ACTIVE in a chapter, but so many times there's a small number of women that do all of the work in the chapter. We (Delta) always boast we are the largest, 200,000 strong etc.. but how many of us are active and doing our part? How many of us are truly giving back to the rich legacy of Delta Sigma Theta? If enough were, there'd be enough members to supervise properly over the undergraduate chapters. But at the same time ladies, there is but so much we can do. WE as graduate members cannot watch over the undergrads 24/7. Even attending all the legitimate events....that's not where the problem is, it's those unauthorized late night sessions that are the problem..... And to those that pledged undergrad, let's get real, you all know about the ways to get around the advisor and the tricks of the trade to avoid all appearances of evil....or maybe everyone here just went through Intake officially.

All that said, I know this is a touchy subject, because this means changing the livelihood of sororities and fraternities, hbcu culture etc.. as we know it, but what else can we do??? There are other solutions, but how viable are they??

Probable Solution #1 - more members in all organizations need to be active so that the workload can be spread around efficiently and equally

Probable Solution #2 - change the mentality of people interested AND BGLO members re: the processes

Probable Solution #3 - preach to our undegrads until we're blue in the face about what to do and what not to do, how to pick members, consequences of their actions,...etc...

All of these things I've mentioned are personal decisions members have to make. Nationals can't make people be active, and how do we change a mentality that we have created?

I know none of us have the answers, and we're all just putting our heads together to come up with a solution, but I think the one the point we all can agree on is that there has to be a change.

[AKA2D '91]

Originally posted by Happydaysf91
...we only have a handful of movers and shakers that are living up to the true meaning of our pledges....participating in community service, going to conferences and etc. Those handful can't run the chapter as a whole, watch the undergrads day and night (exaggeration), take care of their families, have a career or etc.

I'm not making excuses for graduate members. There is room for improvement. However, I'm trying to figure out what exactly people want from graduate members? Even if we show up to everything, have an excellent mentorship program in place, extend the 'process'....hazing on the undergrad level could still possibly continue...because we can't be with them all day and all night.

Exactly, Soror.

I'm on our UG Activities Committee. It is DAYUM hard trying to handle 'regular' sorority business (service, committee meetings, etc.), life responsibilities, and still have time for the UGs. HECK, I'm single and childless and IT'S DAYUM HARD, so I'm sure that for a person married WITH kids it's EXTRA HARD. Anyway, we do what we want and don't do what we don't want... I tell ya, if you let it, you (as a ACTIVE Graduate member) can become very BURNED OUT!

Even with the UG committee, it's hard for the 10 of us, excluding the GA to make/support events. We can "talk" to UGs until we are Pink in the face, but doing the RIGHT/CORRECT thing is an INTERNAL issue. This is something that had to be taught when they came out of the womb. It doesn't matter what process an organization has, if one comes and is UNETHICAL, then that's it...he/she is UNETHICAL....simple as that! We cannot change THAT PERSON! He or she must be willing to change her/himself. Do we have time to wait for this to happen?

My chapter president says that "Doing the Right Thing" is a personal issue and it cannot be regulated, per se. I feel that if this was 100% accurate then we would not need LAWS. We have laws throughout this land and if someone breaks those laws, they are punished accordingly. What's different about our organizations? If we left everything up to each individual about "doing the right thing" (a land without laws) what kind of world would we live in?

I'm about "0 Tolerance." If you can't abide, you have to go!

Oh, if you think "stuff" doesn't happen on the Graduate level, then you better ask somebody.

[Love_Spell_6]

Originally posted by AKA2D '91
I'm about "0 Tolerance." If you can't abide, you have to go!

Oh, if you think "stuff" doesn't happen on the Graduate level, then you better ask somebody.

SPEAK ON IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[AKA2D '91]

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82
You ladies have a good discussion going and some of your conclusions are good and some of your suggestions better. They may well be the future. Many of you ladies don't have the value of hindsight on your side, so that makes it even better. For a dinosaur like me, I am the PROBLEM. I'm not letting go of my process and my pride in it. I did not see anything wrong with it or worth pursuing a lawsuit for. My mindet is the problem. I don't consider "earning my letters hazing. I don't see sweating for my letters in the same manner as the 100,000 before me did as wrong. The "problem" is I take too much pride in my ACHIEVEMENT. The fact that it was so difficult and required a tremendous amount of what my org cherishes, not only made me feel special and a cut above, my peers, big brothers, and GDIs acknowledged that also. That is the problem. The fact that my shit is real and not fake, weak, watered down, or PAPER is the problem. As long as there are fraternity and sorority members like me, that aspirants want to emulate, they will always feel the pressure to earn their letters. In this day and time, it means bending the rules. I'm the problem, because I speak proudly and boldly about the MERITS, pageantry, and worthiness of my process. I'm not ashamed of having pledged hard, nor making others after me pledge just as hard. That is the problem. When others stop feeling inadequate when in the presence of people like me, hazing will stop. When people like me learn to stop deriding and belittling the weekender, paper, sign on the dotted line, when do I get my letters and stroll on members, then there will be a change. The day that I start accepting weak CATS as brothers due all the love and respect as those of Blood, Sweat, & Tears, then hazing will end. I and people like me are the "problem". Until we fade away like old men relegated to speaking of the "good ole days", the problem will remain. As long as young men see the arrogance, confidence, strength, character, enthusiasm, and Manhood that a tried and true process develops, they will seek it out and continue the trend.

It still goes back to the INDIVIDUAL. Feeling INADEQUATE? What kind of mess is that? They aren't weak because of a process or duration of...they are just WEAK! Simple as that!

"You" get your respect because you are "older" and came before, but that's it! It doesn't happen because "you" were "online" in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s! Shucks, I cannot help it because my parents didn't have me until 1972 and "your" parents had "you" in 1949! You think I'm going to feel bad or LESS than because of a process that is different from yours or another orgs? Hell naw! I'm proud of it, just as you are of yours (or should be).

The thing is, everyone is different. Just because you chose not to sue doesn't mean everyone had or will have that same view. The fact of the matter is is that many expect a HAND-OUT. People want something for nothing, like they are ENTITLED to everything that is out there! Heck NO!

It's a new day and age. The dinosaurs of Greekdom are extinct (in black and white). I know many "dinosaurs" that realize and embrace this, without forgetting "from whence they came".

Change is hard!


Key: "you", "your"=Speaking generally

[CrucialCrimson]

Originally posted by Happydaysf91
However, I often wonder now if we all need to provide a list of 'active'/'inactive' members as well. Inactive members as well as people who have never been part of our organizations (ghosts) can cause problems for us too. And none of us have this information posted or disseminated amongst the public.

Have a wonderful, blessed day.

I hope it doesn't go so far as to list active/inactive members, but at a minimum, active and inactive chapters should be listed.

[Happydaysf91]

Yes...it is sad...but we may have to go that route. Because if Candidate Candy doesn't know Soror Suzy is not active....any organization can have a nightmare on their hands.

There will be someone out there always talking about that they didn't know.

The sad thing about it is that most of inactive members would outnumber the active GREATLY!

[Love_Spell_6]

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82
For a dinosaur like me, I am the PROBLEM.... I'm not letting go of my process and my pride in it. I did not see anything wrong with it or worth pursuing a lawsuit for....

My mindet is the problem. I don't consider "earning my letters hazing. I don't see sweating for my letters in the same manner as the 100,000 before me did as wrong.

The "problem" is I take too much pride in my ACHIEVEMENT. The fact that it was so difficult and required a tremendous amount of what my org cherishes, not only made me feel special and a cut above, my peers, big brothers, and GDIs acknowledged that also. That is the problem.

The fact that my shit is real and not fake, weak, watered down, or PAPER is the problem. As long as there are fraternity and sorority members like me, that aspirants want to emulate, they will always feel the pressure to earn their letters. I'm not ashamed of having pledged hard, nor making others after me pledge just as hard.

That is the problem. When others stop feeling inadequate when in the presence of people like me, hazing will stop.

The day that I start accepting weak CATS as brothers due all the love and respect as those of Blood, Sweat, & Tears, then hazing will end. I and people like me are the "problem".

We all miss the point however, in that the solution lies with the legal system. As long as trial lawyers run this country, there will always be someone to sue and someone to blame.

Well brother, I thank you and I'm glad that you decided to weigh in on this discussion, and one common theme that runs throughout your post is that a mind set like yours is the problem. I really believe that hard work and perseverence should be in everyone's process, however, why does this equate to violence. THe mind games, etc....that's cool, but putting your hands on me?? I was raised differently. I don't know where you (and those that think like you) come from, but where I come from, if anybody, man, woman or child were to lay a hand on me,.... it would be ON! And I don't think people are against the hard work, because for us ACTIVE members out there, we know the work entailed on the graduate level, however brother....people are dying,....... and getting put in the hospital....and not as rare as some may think.

Obviously, it is out of control. Yes, I think those who think as you do are a part of the problem, but you all are entitled to feel however you want about your process......So what do you think a solution could be?

And also, in a brotherhood/sisterhood, when did it become acceptable to CHOOSE who we want to call our brothers/sisters just because we don't like the way the came in?? I thought the goals were Uplift, Education, Scholarship, etc?

And last but not least, if our founders saw what goes on....late night....do you think they'd be pleased?

Please break it down for me. I just want to understand.


Oh yea, for someone who aspires to be a lawyer one day.....please start on another thread on the discussion you brought up at the end!!!

[Love_Spell_6]

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82


Again, for someone who has 1 year in Greekdom, I don't know how you can possibly have a frame of reference as to what I'm speaking to......

Its out of control because just to say hello to an interest is considered hazing.

When is it acceptable to choose whom to call brother/sister? If you are a Christian, is not your sister in Christ someone who, like you, has accepted Jesus as her Lord and Savior, confessed her sins, and been Baptized in the name of the Holy Trinity.

Same for me...writing a check, filling out some paperwork, coming to meetings, serving on committees, showing up at community service means you are doing the work (kudos for that) but it does not make you a Bruh, nor bond you to me. If doing community service was the barometer, why not just extend membership to every employee/volunteer at homeless/battered women shelters. No soror, a BOND is built on something quite different (at least for Omega). The first goal is Brotherhood. Delta is a "Service Sorority" so you have an entirely different mandate.

If our founders saw...? The ultimate red herring question. One of my founders wrote the pledge manual that I pledged under and he wrote the ritual, so by that token, he must have been in favor of hazing, because everything in there would be considered hazing today, punishable by expulsion and subject to litigation.

The solution: Cease being greek lettered societies and become open admission community service organizations. Eliminate the pretense and you will eliminate the need to pledge and be pledged.

Well Que, there are some things in your post I can not challenge, simply because this is a public forum. But as for me being in Greekdom for 1 year,.... I really can't speak to that in this forum, but my knowledge/experience begins a long time before 2001.... ANd also, many times, people that cure diseases, don't necessarily have to have it.... to find a cure.

Also, as for you saying that your post did not mention violence, Kudos to you and your chapter if it's different there. Apparently things are a bit different in other places.

And as for the people dying and being put in the hospital being the extreme, again, Kudos to you if that's so rare where you're from that it can be considered an "extreme." I do know however, that for the families that suffer the grief over their son's or daughter's death, hospitalization etc... one is enough......

And as for the founders. I dare assert that THE 22 would frown if they knew people were dying or carrying out vile acts in their name/honour. But I guess it's different for frats.

Your points are clear,.... and true, as long as interests crave respect and acceptance from those that feel as you do, there will always be a problem, and there will always be those who seek membership at any cost...... as common sense and priorities go by the wayside.

As this lengthy discussion on this topic shows, the two viewpoints have a long way to go until a happy medium is reached. IF one is ever reached.

It is indeed sad times for BGLO's and most likely the last days of BGLO's as we know it.

I know you categorized yourself/your thinking as a dinosaur.....well que....dinosaurs are extinct.....and had they not become extinct,.... they would have destroyed all mankind, and we would not be here today.

[LatinaAlumna]

This follow-up article was in yesterday's LA Times....



October 13, 2002
LOS ANGELES
Victim's Mother Starts Anti-Hazing Group

By Erika Hayasaki, Times Staff Writer
A mother who believes her daughter, a Cal State Los Angeles student, was participating in a sorority ritual when she drowned last month, announced on Saturday the founding of Mothers Against Hazing, a nonprofit organization she created to end dangerous pledging practices.
Patricia Strong-Fargas told a crowd of nearly 40 people who gathered at an Inglewood restaurant that she blames Alpha Kappa Alpha, a prominent black sorority, for the death of her daughter, Kristin High, 22. High, who had a 2-year-old son, drowned in the waters of Dockweiler State Beach in Playa del Rey on Sept. 9.


High's family recently filed a $100-million wrongful death lawsuit against the sorority. It claims Alpha Kappa Alpha members led a blindfolded High into strong waves late that night as part of a pledging ritual that is popular among black fraternities and sororities on the West Coast.
Another Cal State L.A. student, Kenitha Saafir, 24, of Compton, also drowned that night. Like High, Saafir was pledging the sorority.
Police have said that the drownings were accidental. There was no evidence of wrongdoing, and no blindfolds or ropes were found at the scene. But hazing has not been ruled out and the investigation is ongoing, police said.
Lawyers, family and community members claim Alpha Kappa Alpha members have refused to provide information to help the investigation.
At least five other women were at the beach that night. Three of those women were members of the sorority and the other two were pledges.
"This movement is not about bringing down black fraternities or sororities. We have a lot of support for what they do," said Angela Reddock, an attorney for the family. "But it is about uncovering this world which we all know exists."
Mothers Against Hazing will pressure lawmakers to adopt stricter anti-hazing laws and demand that fraternities and sororities prohibit hazardous pledging customs, Strong-Fargas said.
Hazing is a misdemeanor defined under state law as any act that may cause degradation and mental or physical harm. Strong-Fargas wants the state to adopt a "Kristin Law," named after her daughter, to make hazing a felony.
"It could be your child next, and I don't want that to happen," she told the gathering at Farmer's Restaurant.
Holman Arthurs, 25, held a photograph of High, his fiancee, with the couple's son, Skyler. A woman in the audience wiped away tears when Arthurs said, "She was the love of my life."
"Every day I am faced with answering the question, 'Daddy, where's Mommy?' " Arthurs said. "There are people out there that know what happened. [They] are part of the organization and they need to speak out."
Earl Ofari Hutchinson, president of the National Alliance for Positive Action, a public advocacy group that promotes social change, said he is motivated to work with Strong-Fargas because she is unwavering in her fight for justice. The alliance coordinated Saturday's discussion.
"Here is a mother who is not just sitting back and weeping," he said. "She's determined to do something about it."
He said he hopes Mothers Against Hazing will raise awareness among parents and students, as well as push for stricter punishment for those caught engaging in such practices.
Strong-Fargas said the organization also plans to create mentoring and scholarship programs for women.
"I want to call on mothers of any children involved in fraternities or sororities to come out and band with the community to stop this," she said.

[AKA2D '91]

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82


Feeling "inadequate" is a true feeling. Its like working hard to get an A to make the Deans List or stealing the test the night before to get an A.

Stealing?

The whole basis of this thread people trying to defend the ease of their process by juxtaposing it to the worst case scenario of those drwonings (which have nothing to do with a legitimate pledge process).

You really think this is the basis of this thread?

Be proud of your process. Never told you not to be. But indicticting people as stupid, dumb, weak minded individuals looking to be abused, indicts everyone who became a member pre-1990. Again. my whole argument is based on a frame of reference.

okay

If it were 2002, any of that 4 could have gotten a million $ today. Thing was, back then, there was no culture of lawsuits, and those that got seriously hurt had their bills paid and thats it. You couldn't get rich simply by some bruised buttocks and a bruised ego.

Re culture: that's the way it is TODAY! That's why we have the pre-90 post -90 drama... So, since that is the mindset of MANY individuals, do you not think changes should be made to reflect the culture? Are you willing to pay for these lawsuits/settlements?

Yeah, dinosaurs are extinct, but its better than being a CAT anyday. I don't embrace any of this new greek bull-ish. Y'all can have all these split-line, drop diming, backdoor sneaking, weekend made, callin', handsignin', my ish smell so good cuz I got 3 letters, livin' to step and stroll, "I didn't pledge but I'm active", non-tradition repsecting, I'll make it up as I go along Greeks. Its cool, I know ,y place and I'm happy with it.

So, if one didn't "pledge" does that mean that they do not respect tradition or are they just ethical, law abiding citizens or what?

I know many whose process wasn't like mine or other members of my org ( I don't know the format of other organizations ), but they give respect to those who came before and such. Should they feel less because of something they have no control of?

I know I wouldn't. (Bump ya'll! )

[knowledge1]

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82
Sorry, Bruhs and others don't respect me because I'm older chronologically. Its because they respect the process of my period and can rightly assume the adequacy of my process without reservation. Something that can't be said now. The whole basis of this thread people trying to defend the ease of their process by juxtaposing it to the worst case scenario of those drownings (which have nothing to do with a legitimate pledge process).

I honestly don't think that this thread was started for people to find a scapegoat for the way they were initiated, pledged, brought in, made, what have you. Believe it or not, that feeling of inadequacy comes from what you deem respect. People decide to undergo pledgeship because they feel that they need to be respected. I say hats off to your 4 LB's who decided to drop. It takes a stronger mentality for you to be ostracized and ridiculed for not being able to "take the heat" and retaining your self-respect as opposed to being stupid and undergoing a considerable amount of humiliation and degradation to get respect. I'm sorry, but I personally weigh respect as something relative to who you are as a person, not how much stuff you can take off of me. You said you wouldn't embrace someone who had a "weak, watered down, CAT, paper" process. Well, believe me, for as many of those that you wouldn't embrace for lack of a process, there are just that many that wouldn't give a flying phuck about YOUR RESPECT. Respect is immaterial and so relative. The inadequacy isn't on the part of those that didn't do what you did, that inadequacey lies in you wanting to get on the net to blast people for not doing what you did. If your process was so adequate and tight, you would be sure in and of yourself for it and wouldn't spew out rhetoric condemning others for not doing so. If you appreciated so much of your process and did your process to feel personally adequate, then respect from those that brought you in wouldn't even be remotely an issue. Did it ever occur to you that there are some, such as AKA2D91, who do feel adequate in their process?

BTW, there are a lot of things that are done and have been done within a legitimate pledge process that were not once there. It's called people coming up with more creative haze/pledge methods. If you would be so kind, please name one fraternity or sorority that has a pledge program that was consistent, across the board, that every chapter followed. It's always a little something more, a little more wood, a little more ridiculous shit, a few more exercises, a few more errands, a week more in session... that end up in a big ass lawsuit. If pledging was as tight as you make it seem, then not one BGLO would have ever faced a lawsuit and people wouldn't have been maimed, injured, or killed in the pursuit. You say "it's those extreme cases". Well, exactly how extreme is extreme to you. And I sincerely doubt that during your day that those being affected by BGLOs in a negative manner didn't want to sue. They didn't have the effective means of taking legal action, because at that time hazing wasn't deemed illegal. Hazing wasn't reported or known of as often because the information medium either wasn't there or not that many folks knew of it (or maybe I'm assuming that internet and e-mail weren't widely available pre-1990).

Honestly, I think that there is some chip that you hold on your shoulder as a result of things that happened to you in your process, whether or not you did or did not allow let them happen.

[Blackwatch]

I must say that I have never seen the "pro-pledging" side of the debate articulated so succinctly as Doggystyle82. He hits at the very heart of the issue, pride and acceptance. He states:
" As long as there are fraternity and sorority members like me, that aspirants want to emulate, they will always feel the pressure to earn their letters."

This is so true. And this, as he states is truly the problem. The issue of earning letters equates to many as earning an identity (and for men, manhood). I stated this before in another forum, but the search for identity and acceptance has haunted black folk for a very long time (double consciousness, "we wear the masks", etc.)

I want to explore another aspect of Doggeystyle's comments when he states that :

... Same for me...writing a check, filling out some paperwork, coming to meetings, serving on committees, showing up at community service means you are doing the work (kudos for that) but it does not make you a Bruh, nor bond you to me. If doing community service was the barometer, why not just extend membership to every employee/volunteer at homeless/battered women shelters. No soror, a BOND is built on something quite different (at least for Omega). The first goal is Brotherhood. Delta is a "Service Sorority" so you have an entirely different mandate.

I do not know about Omega Psi Phi and how they understand "friendship is essential to the soul", but the founders of Alpha Phi Alpha would definately look down upon violence in the membership process. It is official record that the founders looked down on things like the "Tap Day" tradition and brutality in the membership process (Read The History of Alpha Phi Alpha, A Development in College Life by Bro. Dr. Charles H. Wesley). Does this mean that Alpha is not a true brotherhood? I think not, it is just that the founders understood that the brotherhood bond wasn't and can't be created through some process or "blood sweat and tears" so to speak. Brotherhood, to the Founders of Alpha Phi Alpha, was predicated upon men of noble character, having like-mindedness and sober conduct before they entered into consideration for membership. true, Doggystyle, brotherhood isn't predicated on community service, nor is it about a "process". To the Founders, the process was about educating the men about the aims of Alpha, not making them "Better Men" or "better brothers". You cannot obtain these bonds through a "process", and this doesn't make Alpha or any other org. less than a fraternity or sorority (as Doggystyle characterises Delta as a "service sorority."). Again, brotherly and sisterly love is predicated at its core on an essential selflessness in light of your brother/sister, not about a process. Doing the things that Doggeystyle states that you get "kudos" for in his opinion, are the very things that indicate your character, which, in Alpha, makes you worthy to wear the letters of A PHI A. It is a priviledge to wear the letters, only granted to those of noble character, not about how many push ups you have done, or how long you can hold your breath underwater, how much wood you can take, etc.
Should we remain exclusive, most definately, but discriminate based on character and whether a person lives up to the pledge that he or she makes to the org., not a "process". I truly cherish the traditions of Alpha Phi Alpha and I cherish the "process" that I went through as truly the best way to learn about the fraternity and its culture, but it was never a test of my manhood nor my love for Alpha, nor about teaching me how to be a better man. I was man enough before Alpha, and I will be man enough for the rest of my life. What bonds me to every brother of Alpha Phi Alpha on the face of the earth is not a "pledge process", but it is the fact that all men of Alpha are charged to live up to certain standards of character and conduct, and be committed to service and love for all mankind. So whether your are "paper" or "real" has no consequence on your character, which is the bond of every Alpha Man.
I AM ALPHA PHI ALPHA!
Blackwatch!!!!!! '0000000006!!!!!!!!!!