Racial Conflict

[shinerbock]

Well, we probably cut plenty of good guys because they wear Abercrombie too. Life isn't fair.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

I think this is arguable. Sorry, but bad chapters don't usually get large pledge classes, let alone the biggest on campus. I think your take on this example demonstrates that "top" is very subjective.

Yeah, bad chapters often do get huge pledge classes.....for the sake of increasing their numbers. This is called a blanket bid.....where they give everyone a bid that walks through their door. We usually have a very good idea about what guys we are taking way before formal rush even starts. Go to any top house in the South and I would bet you a good amount of money they already know who they are taking during the summer before the start of the year. Obviously some guys will come through during rush that are taken (out of state guys and such), but for the most part......it is already decided.

[UGAalum94]

DSTCHAOS,

Are you white? If you aren't, I'm a little surprised that you'd make the claim that you know what is like to be the average white person. Social networks exist for people of any race or backgroup; the average white network isn't the power system I think you imagine it to be.

Shinerbock, Macallen, Elephant Walk,

Of course, you guys can use whatever membership standard you want to use. I do understand what the top houses are like at southern schools. But when you make the claims based on elitism that you guys seem to be making, please understand that some of the causes and some of the effects of your standards are racist. If you're happy with that, whatever, but when you think of great men in history they usually sought to be noble and work for the social good, in addition to being good hosts and having good manners.

I'd also throw out there that your failure to seek out the best guys on campus, rather than waiting for guys to show up at rush, isn't probably falling short of what your founders had in mind and is probably causing your groups to become weaker over time. People are still showing up for your parties, but your influence in probably shrinking.

[PeppyGPhiB]

Originally Posted by macallan25

Yeah, bad chapters often do get huge pledge classes.....for the sake of increasing their numbers. This is called a blanket bid.....where they give everyone a bid that walks through their door.

OK, I'll concede that this does happen with fraternities where numbers may be an issue, but what about large(r) chapters?

I was also directing my comments at sororities, which do not usually end up with large pledge classes after formal rush if they're a weak chapter. They may COB later, but the biggest pledge class on campus is not the hallmark of a bad chapter.

[Elephant Walk]

I was also directing my comments at sororities, which do not usually end up with large pledge classes after formal rush if they're a weak chapter. They may COB later, but the biggest pledge class on campus is not the hallmark of a bad chapter.

Yes it usually is. It's a sign of the weakest chapter. Pike, here gave out like 45-50 bids. Probably along with the other top sized pledge classes. It's too bad they took all the guys no one wanted. I looked at their new pledge list, and it contained 30 people we had cut the first night because they were going to be bad pledges, and were mostly from plano, which is the worst.

and elephant walk, arkansas does matter?

Not as much fraternity-wise as Auburn, Ole Miss, Georgia, Alabama, LSU and Texas, but more than the rest. We consistently have strong chapters which have good sized pledge classes with quite a bit of money. There is a bit of history here with long-standing chapters.

As to tradition and the history of chapters, it is usually the rule to be on campus longer is better, however one can look at Phi Gam at Alabama, who has been on the campus forever and is not all that great.

[FSUZeta]

macallen and elephant walk,

would you please tell us what constitutes a top fraternity on your campus?

[shinerbock]

Alpha Gam, well and we say people don't come to our house, that means we also don't really come in any sort of contact with them. Generally, like was said, we have probably 85 percent of our pledge class a couple weeks before formal rush. We generally get them through summer parties and what not, and I've never seen a minority come to one of our beach party weekends, skeet shoots, or even when we rent out bars in Atlanta, Charlotte, Bham, etc. Its just how it is, and other than people on this board who are pretty disconnected from it, I don't really see too many minorities on these campuses who care. At all.

[Elephant Walk]

Usually a long standing chapter 75+ years at least, powerful alumni (not always a determinant because of Sigma Nu on our campus...they have some of the Tysons and such), Takes the guys everyone fights over, tough pledging programs, acceptable academics, some philanthropy but it doesn't get seen, the party house.

[PeppyGPhiB]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

Yes it usually is. It's a sign of the weakest chapter. Pike, here gave out like 45-50 bids. Probably along with the other top sized pledge classes. It's too bad they took all the guys no one wanted. I looked at their new pledge list, and it contained 30 people we had cut the first night because they were going to be bad pledges, and were mostly from plano, which is the worst.

I'm not sure why you posted this in response to my comment about sorority pledge classes. I conceded your point about fraternity pledge classes when numbers are an issue. This is not the case with sororities during NPC formal recruitment, where the biggest pledge class is usually indicative of a strong house.

[shinerbock]

I'm not sure how it is as far as sorority recruitment at every school, but it doesn't seem like there is much difference in numbers in the really good chapters and the ok ones. However, there is an obvious difference between the great, good and ok sororities and the terrible ones.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by Alphagamuga

Shinerbock, Macallen, Elephant Walk,

Of course, you guys can use whatever membership standard you want to use. I do understand what the top houses are like at southern schools. But when you make the claims based on elitism that you guys seem to be making, please understand that some of the causes and some of the effects of your standards are racist. If you're happy with that, whatever, but when you think of great men in history they usually sought to be noble and work for the social good, in addition to being good hosts and having good manners.

When the hell did I ever make any claims based on "elitism"?? What is your deal with using this word? I have been pretty calm, but you are really starting to piss me off. I don't think that I am better than anyone, period. Our standards are in no way, shape or form, fucking racist. Some of you morons don't understand the magnitude of that word......and I take quite a bit of offense when me or my chapter is accused of being racist becasue we don't go out of out way to extend a bid to a fucking minority. We have every right in the world to extend bids to guys whom we see fit to be a part of our chapter. We have areas and locations that we like to get guys from...and the rest of our pledge numbers are made up during rush. I honestly do try to get a very good idea of the kind of guys that come through our house.......and I have yet to see a black guy that is anything close to what we would want. Nothing in common, period. As far as Asians and Hispanics.....don't really see any......and the ones that do go through would rather be in a Latino or Asian fraternity from what I can tell through the years.

I'm glad you think that we are unable to be "noble and work for the social good" because we don't go searching for a minority that might fit in with our fraternity.....nice logic there. Last time I checked, the men in our house wrere all raised in a high class social upbringing that certainly taught them how to be good hosts, and I don't think anyone would say that they weren't gentlemen.

Originally Posted by Alphagamuga

I'd also throw out there that your failure to seek out the best guys on campus, rather than waiting for guys to show up at rush, isn't probably falling short of what your founders had in mind and is probably causing your groups to become weaker over time. People are still showing up for your parties, but your influence in probably shrinking.

Sorry, we don't wait around till formal rush starts and then "search" for guys on campus. A large proportion of our pledge class is already determined prior to school starting. Being at UGA I figured you would have some knowledge of how fraternity recruitment works. This is why a good chapter holds rush parties in areas that they like to recruit from and holds rush trips for the guys that we are really interested in. Obviously there are always some guys that will come through the house during rush that we may take a look at.....but for the most part the class is already made up. If we don't find anyone during rush that we don't think would be a good fit......tough shit. Besides the point, why should we try to pursue people that don't show any interest in us IN THE FIRST PLACE?? I haven't seen a black guy at any one of our rush events in the summer....ever.....and the ones that are held at the fraternity houses during the summer are enormous parties. Same goes for bar tabs, golf tournaments, ranch trips, New Orleans trips, etc. etc.

Sorry........we aren't getting weaker because we don't actively pursue minorities for the sake of saying we are diversified. That is horrible reasoning.....

[Elephant Walk]

This is why a good chapter holds rush parties in areas that they like to recruit from and holds rush trips for the guys that we are really interested in.

Agreed we hold pre-rush parties in Dallas, Little Rock and Memphis. I have never seen a black person there. The only black person who came through rush last year wanted to go Lambda Chi, and they cut him. He dropped out of rush.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by FSUZeta

macallen and elephant walk,

would you please tell us what constitutes a top fraternity on your campus?

Down here at Texas, we have 3 of them....SAE, FIJI, KA.

I would describe them all as very wealthy houses with a very long and well noted history on campus, all having very powerful alumni. The top chapters have been so for a long time. The chapters themselves are very strong in numbers and are desired equally by a huge percentage of rushees. Members are all from well established, affluent, upper class families and usually have some sort of family tie-in to the chapter that they are a part of. Guys from all of these chapters share many common interests, whether it be politics, music, dress, hunting and fishing, playing golf, etc. Guy's grades are good and many spend their summers interning for senators, attorneys, bankers, etc. etc. These chapters generally have the best and most well attended parties...and are all very popular among the sororities....but generally only do things with the equally top sorority chapters on campus. Also, you don't know what this is....but the top houses generally produce most of the Silver Spurs and Texas Cowboys on campus.......the guys that shoot the cannon and take care of BEVO during and away from football games. They are very high honors and most always awared to fraternity members.

[FSUZeta]

and you have just described pi kappa alpha at fsu-minus the spurs and cowboys. of all the men who have served as the seminole mascot, chief osceola, the majority have been pikes.

unfortunately, sae is not currently on the fsu campus-they were a strong chapter when i was in school, but had some problems and had to leave, came back on, and left again. hopefully they will return soon.

[macallan25]

ok. great. I've heard differently......from guys that go to Florida St.