Christian terrorists hijack a plane

[blueangel]

I was wondering what blueangel was talking about. I couldn't find his/her Q'uran post anywhere in this thread.

Reposting this from the other thread for DSTChaos:

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I agree that there are extremists in many religions. All one has to do is look at the Crusades, or the Salem Witch trials.... hence, why I'm not a fan of organized religion.

However, and maybe Opi can chime in here... what is one to think about Islam when the final words of Mohammed to his disciples was, "I was ordered to fight all men until they say, "There is no god but Allah."

and, in Qur'an :39 it says, "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah." and "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief --non Muslims) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone."

and in Ishaq :587 "Our onslaught will not be a weak and faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violenty before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight unti our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace."

Perhaps I'm not reading these quotes correctly, but it doesn't seem like a faith of tolerance and peace. Opi.. could you please clarify?

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by blueangel

Reposting this from the other thread for DSTChaos:

-------
I agree that there are extremists in many religions. All one has to do is look at the Crusades, or the Salem Witch trials.... hence, why I'm not a fan of organized religion.

However, and maybe Opi can chime in here... what is one to think about Islam when the final words of Mohammed to his disciples was, "I was ordered to fight all men until they say, "There is no god but Allah."

and, in Qur'an :39 it says, "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah." and "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief --non Muslims) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone."

and in Ishaq :587 "Our onslaught will not be a weak and faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violenty before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight unti our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace."

Perhaps I'm not reading these quotes correctly, but it doesn't seem like a faith of tolerance and peace. Opi.. could you please clarify?

To comment on you, I'd like you to clarify the, well, the entire Old Testament that shows, explicitly or implicitly that it is ok to kill, rape and steal for land, just because you want it.

[shinerbock]

Yeah, but you're straying from terrorism to just general immoral acts. Nobody is molesting children because they are acting out their beliefs. Its a problem sure, but I don't think its directly related to Catholic faith.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by blueangel

Reposting this from the other thread for DSTChaos:

-------
I agree that there are extremists in many religions. All one has to do is look at the Crusades, or the Salem Witch trials.... hence, why I'm not a fan of organized religion.

However, and maybe Opi can chime in here... what is one to think about Islam when the final words of Mohammed to his disciples was, "I was ordered to fight all men until they say, "There is no god but Allah."

and, in Qur'an :39 it says, "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah." and "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief --non Muslims) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone."

and in Ishaq :587 "Our onslaught will not be a weak and faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violenty before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight unti our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace."

Perhaps I'm not reading these quotes correctly, but it doesn't seem like a faith of tolerance and peace. Opi.. could you please clarify?

Fight, onslaught, mutilate, plunder = literal or figurative? spiritual warfare or physical/actual warfare?

Any religious doctrine could be interpreted as intolerant and not peaceful. Christian doctrine says things like love thy neighbor (and so does the doctrine of other faiths...I believe the Q'uran has similar teachings) but Christianity isn't necessarily tolerant or peaceful toward 1) nonbelievers and 2) people with certain lifestyles. Depending on how Scripture is interpreted and what crazies get a hold of certain interpretations, we could see (even more) crazy Christians running around oppressing and killing people in the names of Jesus and God.

[RU OX Alum]

Originally Posted by blueangel

Yes there was a crusade, and it was wrong.. just as Nazi Germany was also an organized extermination of another religion, and it was wrong.... just as the Islamic Terrorist "Jihad" is an organized extermination of all non Muslims. What is extremely disturbing are those passages in the Islamic holy book that I quoted to Opi urging Muslims to fight all non-muslims.

The crusade wasn't magically called off and not every muslim is part of the Jihad. Everytime an abortion doctor is threatened, it is act of some one who sees himself as a CRUSADER and the rest of him call him a CHRISTIAN TERRORIST because that is what he really is.

I'm going out on a little bit of limb, but according to my good friend (who is muslim) there are NO calls to violence against non-Muslims in the Koran. (whatever spelling you like)

[blueangel]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

Fight, onslaught, mutilate, plunder = literal or figurative? spiritual warfare or physical/actual warfare?

Any religious doctrine could be interpreted as intolerant and not peaceful. Christian doctrine says things like love thy neighbor (and so does the doctrine of other faiths...I believe the Q'uran has similar teachings) but Christianity isn't necessarily tolerant or peaceful toward 1) nonbelievers and 2) people with certain lifestyles. Depending on how Scripture is interpreted and what crazies get a hold of certain interpretations, we could see (even more) crazy Christians running around oppressing and killing people in the names of Jesus and God.

I agree with your point. Just look at the Christian extremists who bombed abortion clinics.

Many passages in the Bible.. both in the New and Old Testament can be interpreted many ways. That's why I was asking for an interpretation of these passages in the Q'uran.

But, could there possibly be a peaceful interpretation of the above quoted Q'uran passages? It seems to be all about "forcing" others to convert.. not about "witnessing" or "spreading the word."

[blueangel]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Yes but there's a difference between "America" and "Americans"

For the most part "Americans" didn't care about the Middle East. "America" in the form of the government did.

I think all the Abrahamic religions have gone through their violent phases. Israelites killed to get into the Promised Land and there were militant zealots who expected Jesus to overthrow Rome. Christianity's major ones were the Crusades, but also witch hunts and Inquisitions. Islam is dealing with a similar thing right now. This does not mean that all people in any religion are violent, just that some have used religion for violence.

Pope Benedict's comment that started yet another fight was basically trying to say that God (by whatever name) and violence do not mix. God is rational, terrorism and violence are irrational.

Oh and shinerbock no, there isn't a lot of Catholic violence right now, but if you don't think that sexual abuse is just as bad as violence, you have some other issues. The percentage of clergy who abused children was small, but still the majority was called upon to denounce them. Just as the percentage of muslim militants is truly small, but the majority is called upon to denounce them.

I agree with much of what you say.. however.. I disagree about the "truly small" percentage of Muslim militants. There are jhadist networks and cells all over Europe, the US, and... in fact.. the world. There are training camps for militant Muslims, and schools that brainwash young people to promote the hate of all non-Muslims.

The numbers truly are quite staggering. While it is impossible to get an exact count.. there have been estimations. Of course, polls are not an exact science, but can give one a rough idea.

Among them: Monte and Princess Palmer's 2003 study finds an estimated four percent of Muslims in the world are Islamist fundamentalists. That is a HUGE number, considering there are an estimated 1.2 billion Muslims in the world. Islam is the second largest religion on the globe.

I just don't see those types of massive organized cells and networks devoted to wiping out other religions among Christians, Hindus, Buddhists or any other religions.

[kstar]

Originally Posted by blueangel

I agree with much of what you say.. however.. I disagree about the "truly small" percentage of Christian militants. There are conservative networks and cells all over Europe, the US, and... in fact.. the world. There are "Bible" camps for militant Christians, and private schools that brainwash young people to promote the hate of all non-Christians.

Made my changes in the quote.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by blueangel

I agree with much of what you say.. however.. I disagree about the "truly small" percentage of Muslim militants. There are jhadist networks and cells all over Europe, the US, and... in fact.. the world. There are training camps for militant Muslims, and schools that brainwash young people to promote the hate of all non-Muslims.

The numbers truly are quite staggering. While it is impossible to get an exact count.. there have been estimations. Of course, polls are not an exact science, but can give one a rough idea.

Among them: Monte and Princess Palmer's 2003 study finds an estimated four percent of Muslims in the world are Islamist fundamentalists. That is a HUGE number, considering there are an estimated 1.2 billion Muslims in the world. Islam is the second largest religion on the globe.

I just don't see those types of massive organized cells and networks devoted to wiping out other religions among Christians, Hindus, Buddhists or any other religions.

1 - Citation for stats

2 - Define your terms -> 'fundamentalist' does not equal 'terrorist' or even 'militant', on any automatic level

[epchick]

Originally Posted by blueangel

However, and maybe Opi can chime in here... what is one to think about Islam when the final words of Mohammed to his disciples was, "I was ordered to fight all men until they say, "There is no god but Allah."

Perhaps I'm not reading these quotes correctly, but it doesn't seem like a faith of tolerance and peace. Opi.. could you please clarify?

Maybe you aren't understand correctly, but _Opi_ already said that she would not answer you, so please quit badgering her about answering your questions.

I'm going to say it, time and time again...if you want the answers to your question, actually go out, do some research, take a class, talk to a sheik (that's what they are called right?).

Besides, "fight" does not always mean "coming to blows" or any physical violence. For all we know, back when Mohammed said it, he could have meant something totally different.

Like others have mentioned, there are passages in the Bible that are pretty questionable now, but that is because we put our own little "twisted" spin on it.

Originally Posted by epchick

Maybe you aren't understand correctly, but _Opi_ already said that she would not answer you, so please quit badgering her about answering your questions.

Badgering. Wouldn't that be considered harassment?

[epchick]

Originally Posted by OTW

Badgering. Wouldn't that be considered harassment?

As a matter of fact, it does. According to http://www.dictionary.com, it says:

badg·er·ing
To harass or pester persistently.

See Synonyms at harass.

Well what do ya freaking know....learn something knew everyday don't cha?

[_Opi_]

Originally Posted by blueangel

and, in Qur'an :39 it says, "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah." and "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief --non Muslims) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone."

and in Ishaq :587 "Our onslaught will not be a weak and faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violenty before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight unti our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace."

Obviously, you wont pick up a hardcopy of the Quran yourself and you want the easy way out. Alright, let me break it down for you. Your first citation is "Qu'ran 39". This is not the right way to cite a verse from the holy book. You must have the chapter name or number and verse number. Example: Al-Baraqa 50. Al-Baraqa is the chapter name. 50 is the specific verse. Or you can write it like so..surah 2 (which is Al-Baraqa):50. There is no chapter in the Quran named Quran. Therefore the first quote you gave me wasINCORRECT.

Your second citation is "Ishaq:587". There is no chapter called "Ishaq". In fact, the closest sounding chapter is "Al-Ishiqaq". I thought this was a good-faith mistake until I looked at the verse #. 587. The longest chapter in the Quran is Al-Baraqa. It contains 286 verses. Let me repeat this in case you missed it. There is no chapter and no such verse in the Quran.

Now, I ran some searches on google to see where you might have gotten them and here are the top results:

First verse:

An acoustic guitar forum
Prophet of Doom (lol)
JihadWatch

Second verse:

Prophet of Doom
Jihad in Islam (understanding-Islam.com is a Christian website)
FaithFreedom


They cite those verse the same (incorrect) way. I can only assume you went to one of those sites to get your verses. Like I said, you're wasting your time and you have already wasted mine for making me type an essay.


Have a nice day

[_Opi_]

Originally Posted by blueangel

There is a Jihad against non-Muslims as urged by the Islamic holy book.

No it does not. Please stop slandering a Holy Book that you have never read.

[_Opi_]

Originally Posted by blueangel

Yes there was a crusade, and it was wrong.. just as Nazi Germany was also an organized extermination of another religion, and it was wrong.... just as the Islamic Terrorist "Jihad" is an organized extermination of all non Muslims. What is extremely disturbing are those passages in the Islamic holy book that I quoted to Opi urging Muslims to fight all non-muslims.

How do you leave your home everyday? If I thought there was a mass Jihad going on, I would not dare step out of my house.

As for organized? How so? Muslims in Iraq are killing each other. I would hardly call that organized. Please explain your understanding of world politics so we can understand where you are coming from.