Delta Omega Chi of MTV fame loses recognition

[AYE FEE]

Originally posted by kddani
HUGE applause to wishinhopin.
What a well written, soundly thought out post. Very calm, ladylike, professional, and profound! Go you!

I agree

[Educated]

KDDANI: Just so you know, there is no footage of the theft taking place.. The act didn't take place while engaged with MTV.

Wishin:

One of their members wrote to the local paper and stated that he was offended by the portrayal of Greeks in a recent article about the fish scandal

You did make mention of that article, but whatever. We'll just leave it at respectfully disagreeing.

Bottom line is: If DOC is off campus, UCSC has less control over them, they don't have to participate in Formal Rush, don't have to worry about UCSC getting them for hazing like in Buffalo, and doesn't have to worry about ANYTHING from UCSC. People will still know DOC, and when someone says what fraternities are on campus the little "DOC but they aren't recognized by UCSC" will mean nothing to anyone who woulda rushed DOC anyways.


If DOC is readmitted, then they got away with all of this and they'll get a big jolly laugh..

Until the next issue..

[DeltAlum]

So, if they were originally a local, and are no longer "recognized" by any official organization, how do they get insurance? Are they incorporated?

I don't think I'd want to be in their position in any way.

If they can get coverage, it's got to be incredibly expensive. If they don't have it, they're just plain stupid.

[Educated]

Lol.. insurance is one of those things nationals convince you ya need.. and because all of your friends are paying $450 a semester, you just go along with it too.

There will ALWAYS be personal liability no matter who/what/where you are.. so just be careful.


Please.. I do NOT intend to start an insurance liability thread here.. if you disagree with me, which Im sure everyone who has paid national dues towards insurance will, ok... you win.

Besides, DOC has not had ANY charter/incorporation/affiliation etc ever.. They have survived 13 years, on their own. That sort of insight needs to be understood to truly understand how DOC feels about this whole situation.

[DeltAlum]

Educated,

Sorry, but personal liability won't cut it if a pledge or someone else is injured or killed or whatever.

Simply look at some of the legal actions on these other threads in this forum.

And, I thought they were recognized by the university until now. Is that wrong?

With all due respect, your comment about insurance being something Nationals has "convinced" us that we need shows a real lack of knowledge about being part of an organization. It is simply too dangerous for everyone involved if not covered.

You've gotta CYA.

[wishinhopin]

I apologize for contradicting myself, I didn't type exactly what I meant in that first post regarding the newspaper article. I appreciate your respectful fact pointing out. This part is said in all honesty and not meant offensively or snobbishly at all: I think that there is, to some degree, a portion to being Greek that non-Greeks just can't understand. From the outside, Educated, for example, can see that they are a great organization that is true to eachother. But even as one of their best friends he isn't privy to their rituals, their bonds of brotherhood, their secrets and their lifelong connection. And I think that has a whole lot to do with why this matter may seem more trivial to some non-Greeks as opposed to Greeks. I know that, once I was fully active in my sorority, I became a part of a whole huge Greek system- not just Nu Beta Omicron, not just UCSC greeks, but all greeks everywhere. It's an facet of society, with its own standards of behavior, its own priorities, its own set of values. Maybe those of us who take our sister/brotherhood to be a part of that larger system find it easier to reflect on how the actions of a few can affect the whole. I feel like I do have some insight on this matter- after all, those of us who are Greek did live a good 18 or so years (at least) without being Greek....independents were never and presumably will never be Greek, so I don't expect them to comprehend the nuances behind what I'm saying. This is NOT to say that it's better to be Greek rather than not, or that my sorority or whatever is better than anyone elses. I think that maybe all of us taking the other end into account will make it easier for us to communicate....now don't I just sound like a psych major?

[Educated]

Well I think that was my point...

If being Greek is that special, as a collective whole of all greeks everywhere, you sure turned your back on those 26 brothers in DOC who had nothing to do with this incident pretty quick. Yes they signed contracts, but probably because they DID want to show a different side of Greek life. Two of their brothers fucked up, and everyone turned on them. Including their Greek "families" at UCSC.

[wishinhopin]

Educated, I can see how you would feel that way. But did you consider that we felt that DOC had turned their backs on us by participating in this tv show? Their website, their actions, and their attitudes don't appear to point towards them trying to show anything besides the stereotypes of Greek life. My interactions with them and their group actions (not just Casey and Matt, but all of them) have all served as evidence towards one opinion- DOC loves being that stereotype.

I know that they are close, and they have an awesome brotherhood...but they have never had a problem with being the party fraternity, and they've always enjoyed that their local status afforded them the independence to not answer to an authoritative/influential section of their organization. That's fine, I'm more than happy for them if that's what they want.

But I don't think it's reasonable to expect any other Greeks to give them unquestioning, unwavering support in light of all the facts involved in this situation. I pledged to love my sisters unconditionally- not a group of guys who I personally feel have made a mockery of of our already fragile Greek system at UCSC. They certainly haven't made the effort to support or even be polite to us- I don't think it would be fair for them to expect in return what they don't give out.

But here's my real question...Educated, you've made a big point about how little DOC cares about what others think of them, especially UCSC. And you've also pointed out that they don't care about their disaffiliation from campus, and they don't care what people think about their mtv involvement. So why do you care so much? I'm not trying to be rude, I'm honestly curious. I know that I'm arguing these (often moot) points because they are very real to me. The effects of their actions have been felt by myself and my sorority, and I'm sure this will only increase as these next couple months roll by.

But does DOC really need someone to stand up for the honor that they themselves have disavowed? While I recognize that you have personal knowledge regarding DOC, you're also on this thread arguing points that you really know little about. Being involved in Greek life gives you a range of experiences, emotions, and information that you just aren't privy to. And, your comments have indicated that you don't really care about Greek attitudes beyond those of DOC. So why are you pushing these uneducated views?

If you honestly want to learn more, this is a great place to do so. But you're not going to get much support from people when you try to tell us how we should or should not feel, or when you tell us that aspects of our organization are pointless things that we just pay for because someone tells us to. You know nothing about these things- and that will be quickly pointed out every time you make such a comment. Again, I'm not trying to start an argument, I really do wonder what your motivations are...and I wonder how open minded you care to be about all these things you haven't experienced.

[madmax]

Originally posted by wishinhopin
Educated, I can see how you would feel that way. But did you consider that we felt that DOC had turned their backs on us by participating in this tv show? Their website, their actions, and their attitudes don't appear to point towards them trying to show anything besides the stereotypes of Greek life. My interactions with them and their group actions (not just Casey and Matt, but all of them) have all served as evidence towards one opinion- DOC loves being that stereotype.

I know that they are close, and they have an awesome brotherhood...but they have never had a problem with being the party fraternity, and they've always enjoyed that their local status afforded them the independence to not answer to an authoritative/influential section of their organization. That's fine, I'm more than happy for them if that's what they want.

But I don't think it's reasonable to expect any other Greeks to give them unquestioning, unwavering support in light of all the facts involved in this situation. I pledged to love my sisters unconditionally- not a group of guys who I personally feel have made a mockery of of our already fragile Greek system at UCSC. They certainly haven't made the effort to support or even be polite to us- I don't think it would be fair for them to expect in return what they don't give out.

But here's my real question...Educated, you've made a big point about how little DOC cares about what others think of them, especially UCSC. And you've also pointed out that they don't care about their disaffiliation from campus, and they don't care what people think about their mtv involvement. So why do you care so much? I'm not trying to be rude, I'm honestly curious. I know that I'm arguing these (often moot) points because they are very real to me. The effects of their actions have been felt by myself and my sorority, and I'm sure this will only increase as these next couple months roll by.

But does DOC really need someone to stand up for the honor that they themselves have disavowed? While I recognize that you have personal knowledge regarding DOC, you're also on this thread arguing points that you really know little about. Being involved in Greek life gives you a range of experiences, emotions, and information that you just aren't privy to. And, your comments have indicated that you don't really care about Greek attitudes beyond those of DOC. So why are you pushing these uneducated views?

If you honestly want to learn more, this is a great place to do so. But you're not going to get much support from people when you try to tell us how we should or should not feel, or when you tell us that aspects of our organization are pointless things that we just pay for because someone tells us to. You know nothing about these things- and that will be quickly pointed out every time you make such a comment. Again, I'm not trying to start an argument, I really do wonder what your motivations are...and I wonder how open minded you care to be about all these things you haven't experienced.

It sounds to me like you want them punished because they went on MTV. You didn't even mention the koi.

I think the whole koi incident is just an excuse to punish a fraternity that went against the school's wishes and went on MTV.

[James]

I think madmax has made a pretty accurate assessment here.

Originally posted by madmax
It sounds to me like you want them punished because they went on MTV. You didn't even mention the koi.

I think the whole koi incident is just an excuse to punish a fraternity that went against the school's wishes and went on MTV.

[madmax]

Last year a fraternity at UCSC was involved in a fight in which a man was fatally stabbed.

These guys killed a fish and they received more bad press than the fraternity that was involved in stabbing.


http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...ighlight=asian

http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/arc...es/02local.htm

[James]

Also a cautionary word:

IT is both presumptious and pretentious to fervently maintain the attitutude that people that are not Greek should not comment on Greek issues because they can't understand them.

People are speaking about being Greek as if it causes the growth of some new sensory organ that permits feelings and experiences that other non-greek humans can't have. This is not true.

And to use that untrue concept to outright dismiss and/or trivialize the viewpoints and insights of others violates the spirit of free discourse as well as being an inferior way to argue.

When doing this the argument becomes more about diminishing the person in order to win a point. Its a classic ploy to say, "you just can't/don't understand" to dismiss someone's arguments that people just don't want to hear or have no real good answer for.

I see on one ever telling a non-Greek that Greek Life is beyond their scope when they are speaking in praise of Greek Life.

[texas*princess]

Originally posted by madmax
Last year a fraternity at UCSC was involved in a fight in which a man was fatally stabbed.

These guys killed a fish and they received more bad press than the fraternity that was involved in stabbing.


http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...ighlight=asian

http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/arc...es/02local.htm

When all that happened, the fraternity in question did get a lot of bad press too. I think it's crazy you're implying that they didn't, and the ones that killed a fish did.

I also think it's crazy that you think these two incidents are the same, because I don't feel they are.

DOC petitioned for MTV to go to their school and document their fraternity which caused an uproar at the school. And to top all that off, they wear the offensive shirts *and then* kill a school's pet *while* they are already in the spotlight?! And they expect to be shown the upmost respect?

I'm hearing everywhere that DOC wanted MTV to film them to show the outside world that fraternity life wasn't all about the sterotypes? Hmm.. well they did an awesome job from what I hear

The fraternity that was involved with the stabbing did get bad PR because the fight incident, so to say they didn't would be crazy. They probably didn't get *as much* as DOC has, but if you think about it, DOC was already in a very controversial spotlight.

[wishinhopin]

Sigh. I knew I wasn't going to be able to word that last statement in a way that conveyed my thoughts appropriately. I don't want them punished because they were on mtv- but I don't understand why people feel like we should support them for doing so. I didn't mention the koi in that last post because I was pretty much tired of finding new ways to say "fish killing". It basically makes a bad situation worse in my opinion. And they never wore those shirts previous to mtv's presence, or killed a koi fish, or anything to the extreme extent that has occured in recent months. It seems to me that mtv's presence is related to this upsurge in offensive activities. That, to me, is intolerable. Aside from being completely moronic, are they doing to impress cameras, or to further support their reputation as the crazy party guys? If there's another reason, I would definitely love to know what it is. Doing something stupid because you made a mistake- that's human, and I don't think anyone should be reamed because of it. But doing something stupid for the above reasons just doesn't deserve the same tolerance, in my humble opinion.

Nor have the members of DOC seemed to have any actual regret about how things are going...a point which I felt was reiterated by Educated posting on here about how little the organization cares about what other people think about them. I realize they could regret it very sincerely and just not express it, but it's hard for me personally to trust that coming from a group that has continously lied, been disrespectful, etc. But not everyone has those same experiences, so I don't expect anyone to trust my opinions on the matter.

And to be honest, I think that level of press DOC has received on this matter is ridiculous- in large part because it is a more unique act than someone getting killed. I think that a human death is much more of a tragedy, but you hear about that in the papers every day. Media is designed to attract attention, and the best way to do that is with something suprising and different. And, for what it's worth, the main fraternities involved in that fight mentioned were from San Jose, and there was a great deal of press coverage.

Ok, the point I most wanted to express. I definitely don't think that being Greek puts you in a position where you can learn/feel/experience things that others can't possbly understand. I do, however, feel that any experience can open you up to new opinions and new viewpoints...part of what makes all of us humans unique is that we each have gained different things from different activities. But I think that it isn't automatic- if you choose not to join a Greek organization, there's a good chance that you aren't aware of many of the facets of that experience. If you want to learn, of course I feel it can be done. But if you're going to dismiss these things-like the poster Educated has seemingly done-then I don't see how you can truly understand. Being a part of a sorority has changed my priorities- I have come to a point where being involved in this organization is more important to me than I ever would have anticipated. Before going Greek, so to speak, I was one of the people who was very wary of the whole thing. I didn't see what could be that amazing about the experience. And I don't feel that I was ignorant, or naiive, so much as just lacking that experience. Why would it be such a priority for someone who isn't involved? And surely people who aren't Greek can understand why those of us who are might be upset at negative stereotypes of Greek life perpetuated. Buuuut...I wouldn't look down upon them if they didn't, because some people need that personal factor and involvement to truly know. I feel so frustrated right now because I work SO hard to be openminded, and closedminded people frustrate me more than anything else. For someone to interpret my own thoughts and words as such as very disconcerning to me. So, I apologize if I was offensive and/or elitist. I'm honestly making an effort to understand the points of view behind other people's words, and why we keep disagreeing.

[Educated]

The Fraternity involved in the death, where eight members went to SJSU and someone was stabbed to death, is fully recognized by the University.

DOC, where two members ARE ACCUSED of killing a Koi, is not recognized.

Rumor has it the judicial affairs officer said, "Well it is more serious because it happened AT UCSC."




Anyone who is intelligent enough to make it into college can see UCSC was more harsh on DOC because of the media attention. That IS discrimination. Blame DOC for bringing cameras or not, UCSC was biased because they wanted to look like they had things undercontrol.