Alabama recruitment fall-out

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

There are many chapters out there that actually are not. They just recruit women that they like and that includes women of all ethnicities. Trying to look at pictures of chapters and count out the number of dark faces is ridiculous. I can look at the pictures of my chapters in AZ and CA and know that these chapters are diverse and integrated. When they vote on membership, race is never an issue.

Maybe. But it is lame to play the "I see some nonwhite faces" and "this chapter is less white than that chapter" games.

This really isn't about certain NPC chapters. This is about NPC as a whole.

There's nothing wrong with race being "an issue" in terms of it being a topic of discussion. The concern is when race is "an issue" in terms of being a problem. NPC sororities have long claimed to coincidentally and accidentally be predominantly white. Adding a lot of nonwhite women and saying "we don't notice your race" is equally as lame and bigoted as excluding nonwhites.

[AOII Angel]

We are apparently going to play the obtuse poster who only wants to post the same question over and over again rather than accept the obvious that Alabama and a few other campuses in the South really are less diverse than the rest of the country.

[AGDee]

I was thinking that too, ISK. I'm glad to hear they volunteered. I was wondering how those members might feel if they were always the ones having to do the tables.

[AGDee]

Ok, I'm dying at the fees at Bama. I can't imagine what sorority membership would provide that would be worth $3300-$4500 a semester. (But that's off topic)

[Hartofsec]

Originally Posted by AGDee

Ok, I'm dying at the fees at Bama. I can't imagine what sorority membership would provide that would be worth $3300-$4500 a semester. (But that's off topic)

And yet this is a draw that has contributed to the growth of the university. I was surprised to see that 73% of those who participated in recruitment were from OOS. I didn't realize it was quite that high.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by Hartofsec

And yet this is a draw that has contributed to the growth of the university. I was surprised to see that 73% of those who participated in recruitment were from OOS. I didn't realize it was quite that high.

What's bringing out of staters to Bama is the guaranteed full ride if you have a 3.75 and an ACT of 32. Perhaps those are the women who can afford sorority dues because they aren't paying tuition or room and board? Just a thought.

I don't think, when discussing this, we should focus on just Bama or even SEC or other uber competitive recruitment schools. It is the rare school whose chapters' demographic makeup is similar to that of the general population at the school. I think we have the best chance of first effecting change at schools where recruitment doesn't start before classes start and there is a chance to reach out to women who would not have typically chosen to go through recruitment.

I honestly have no ideas at all for how to actively recruit diverse membership when recruitment starts before school does. I come from an area where most people haven't even thought about being greek until they come in contact with the greek system after classes begin.

Dr.Phil- I do know how you feel about the term "women of color". I end up using it because several of the women I work with have expressed it is the term they prefer.

[DrPhil]

I know some racial and ethnic minorities use that phrase. I disagree with the phrase but am only bothered when whites use the phrase.

People have a tendency to adopt phrases and assume the phrase can be used regardless of the environment. If NPC chapters use that phrase for recruitment or at events be prepared to possibly offend or annoy some people. Be prepared to respond and possibly rethink the use of the phrase. That is all.

[Low D Flat]

The weaker recruiting chapters I have worked with tend to have more diverse memberships

That's been my experience, too. It seems to be true even on campuses where most chapters COB. My theory is that, as noted upthread, "top-tier" NPC chapters sometimes have more of a cookie-cutter skinny white look (sometimes also blonde). The weaker recruiting chapters are more likely to be diverse in terms of appearance and body type, even if all the members are white. If I'm a nonwhite woman, even if I'm skinny and Hollywood pretty, I might gravitate toward the WRC where there's more than one OK way to look, and it doesn't seem like fitting a visual mold is key to belonging.

I agree that there are idiots who "don't see race," but not on this thread, so far.

[lake]

Originally Posted by Low D Flat

It seems to be true even on campuses where most chapters COB. My theory is that, as noted upthread, "top-tier" NPC chapters sometimes have more of a cookie-cutter skinny white look (sometimes also blonde). The weaker recruiting chapters are more likely to be diverse in terms of appearance and body type, even if all the members are white.

I wonder how this would play into the (incorrect?) assertion that some chapters on some campuses already have their bid list decided months before formal recruitment. I've seen this talked about sometimes. I have no idea if this is true. If it is true, it may at least explain some of the issue. I don't know.

I would be interested in reading others' thoughts on this; especially those who are familiar with recruitment at Alabama or in the South, since recruitment seems to be a bigger deal in some areas of the South.

[KSUViolet06]

Went to a school in NE OH. Every chapter on campus (largest to smallest) had Black women in them. Still true today.

Always valued the fact that race-related convos were not taboo within my chapter. Continues to be true for me even post-graduation.

Every time this topic comes around, I'm reminded of how much of a great choice I made in not attending LSU.

I was interested in NPC recruitment circa senior year in HS and knew I'd rush at whatever school I attended.

I ended up not pursuing LSU for other reasons (larger scholarship offered by Kent), but in retrospect, it was probably for the best. I would have been in for a very rude recruitment awakening and a pretty sucky first few weeks of school (because I would've been cut the first day.)

[AnchorAlumna]

Originally Posted by lake

I wonder how this would play into the (incorrect?) assertion that some chapters on some campuses already have their bid list decided months before formal recruitment. I've seen this talked about sometimes. I have no idea if this is true.

It is NOT true that some groups already know their NM class. I don't care how big and powerful they are. Even the top 5 or 6 at Alabama don't. After all, they're competing for the same girls, and not every group gets exactly who they want.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by Low D Flat

That's been my experience, too. It seems to be true even on campuses where most chapters COB. My theory is that, as noted upthread, "top-tier" NPC chapters sometimes have more of a cookie-cutter skinny white look (sometimes also blonde). The weaker recruiting chapters are more likely to be diverse in terms of appearance and body type, even if all the members are white. If I'm a nonwhite woman, even if I'm skinny and Hollywood pretty, I might gravitate toward the WRC where there's more than one OK way to look, and it doesn't seem like fitting a visual mold is key to belonging.

You have never been privy to an NPC membership selection, and I consider your speculation to be way off-base.

[LAblondeGPhi]

Originally Posted by Hartofsec

One point I have seen raised in this thread is that removing the possibility of exclusion based on race is not enough to integrate chapters (such as Alabama, for instance) - that more needs to be done to recruit AA members. This is a valid point considering the preparation necessary to participate in a recruitment of this nature.

I looked at the University of Maryland AOII facebook, and did not see AA members (and none among those in white dresses - are these new initiates?).

The Arizona State University Panhellenic Recruitment Guide doesn't reflect NPC chapter membership of AA women either:

http://asupan.com/wp-content/uploads...oklet20121.pdf

Just using those examples as you mentioned these states.

So I guess my question is -- what threshold of AA membership is considered "fully integrated" and sufficient to claim that a chapter is racially diverse?

Do these chapters actively recruit AA women? What have the chapters you advised done to address recruitment of potential members from diverse racial and socio-economic backgrounds?

Wow. Ok. First - look at the student demographics at ASU - it's 65% + white, and an additional 8% is "unknown", and 7% is "International", so those numbers could be even higher. The student population is only 3% African American. You forget that in the southwest and west coast, demographics represent large Asian and Hispanic populations, not African American populations. (SOURCE)

Second - the point being made was that PNMs are not being turned away due to blatant race issues, although I concede that there may be some soft discrimination - we all have biases in favor of people who are similar to ourselves.

The point is that at many schools, minority women of all stripes and shades have very little difficulty getting bids, and the top minority women are going to the top chapters.

But, none of this addresses the larger issue of the demographics who are being attracted to recruitment, which arguable skews whiter than overall student populations.

Originally Posted by Low D Flat

That's been my experience, too. It seems to be true even on campuses where most chapters COB. My theory is that, as noted upthread, "top-tier" NPC chapters sometimes have more of a cookie-cutter skinny white look (sometimes also blonde). The weaker recruiting chapters are more likely to be diverse in terms of appearance and body type, even if all the members are white. If I'm a nonwhite woman, even if I'm skinny and Hollywood pretty, I might gravitate toward the WRC where there's more than one OK way to look, and it doesn't seem like fitting a visual mold is key to belonging.

I'll agree that I find WRCs are typically more diverse, but I'm not so sure it's that PNM preferences are the main drivers here. I think you're going to see a combination of factors - soft discrimination, typical beauty stereotypes that emphasize skinny blonde girls, and a differences in recruitment preparation between demographic groups.

[Hartofsec]

Originally Posted by LAblondeGPhi

Wow. Ok. First - look at the student demographics at ASU - it's 65% + white, and an additional 8% is "unknown", and 7% is "International", so those numbers could be even higher. The student population is only 3% African American. You forget that in the southwest and west coast, demographics represent large Asian and Hispanic populations, not African American populations. (SOURCE)

Those numbers appear to be old stats regarding degree distribution by race – these may be more up-to-date and detailed:

ASU
1.8% American Indian/Alaskan Native
6.1% Asian
5.3% Black/African-American
20.1% Hispanic/Latino
3.1% Multi-race (not Hispanic/Latino)
0.3% Native Hawaiian/ Pacific Islander
62.2% White
1.2% Unknown

International Students
3.9% from 93 countries
http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg06_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=1096

University of Alabama
0.4% American Indian/Alaskan Native
1.1% Asian
12.1% Black/African-American
2.9% Hispanic/Latino
1.7% Multi-race (not Hispanic/Latino)
0.1% Native Hawaiian/ Pacific Islander
81.3% White
0.3% Unknown

International Students
2.3% from 47 countries
http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/c...l?schoolId=469

Originally Posted by LAblondeGPhi

Second - the point being made was that PNMs are not being turned away due to blatant race issues, although I concede that there may be some soft discrimination - we all have biases in favor of people who are similar to ourselves.

I think the assumption has been (based on the assumption made and spun by authors of news articles) that the young lady of attention last fall at Bama was released by all chapters. She dropped out of formal recruitment, thus the assumption, but perhaps not because all chapters released her.

Originally Posted by LAblondeGPhi

The point is that at many schools, minority women of all stripes and shades have very little difficulty getting bids, and the top minority women are going to the top chapters.

FWIW, there are also women of other minorities in chapters at Bama. Even in the chapter most often featured in the press for releasing the trustee’s granddaughter.

Also FWIW, Alabama colleges and universities within an hour’s distance of Bama also have minority members in their NPC chapters – all of these campuses have AA NPC chapter members: University of Alabama Birmingham, Birmingham Southern, Samford, University of Montevallo, and the University of West Alabama – that I know of. And so do universities in other regions of the state. I don’t know if onlookers in other areas of the country realize that.

So in my mind, this seems less a state of Alabama issue (or less a problem persisting in the south, as some have generalized), and more an issue involving the huge intensive recruitment at Bama – and AA women as the minority underrepresented.

Originally Posted by LAblondeGPhi

But, none of this addresses the larger issue of the demographics who are being attracted to recruitment, which arguable skews whiter than overall student populations.

I agree – I understand as few as 2 (and at most 4) AA PNMs participated (at some point) in NPC recruitment at Bama last fall. Even with a COB round implemented specifically to recruit and pledge minority women, relatively few AA women joined. Unless far many more register for recruitment, I don’t know how the goal of “complete integration,” as recently passed by the SGA , will be accomplished. (not that I read the resolution, but it seems a lot like grandstanding after the fact)

I feel like any racial barriers to the NPC recruitment process have been moved aside as much as is institutionally possible. The question I have raised, however, is . . . will this be enough to accomplish that goal?

[KDCat]

Originally Posted by Hartofsec

Those numbers appear to be old stats regarding degree distribution by race – these may be more up-to-date and detailed:

ASU
1.8% American Indian/Alaskan Native
6.1% Asian
5.3% Black/African-American
20.1% Hispanic/Latino
3.1% Multi-race (not Hispanic/Latino)
0.3% Native Hawaiian/ Pacific Islander
62.2% White
1.2% Unknown

International Students
3.9% from 93 countries
http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg06_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=1096

University of Alabama
0.4% American Indian/Alaskan Native
1.1% Asian
12.1% Black/African-American
2.9% Hispanic/Latino
1.7% Multi-race (not Hispanic/Latino)
0.1% Native Hawaiian/ Pacific Islander
81.3% White
0.3% Unknown

International Students
2.3% from 47 countries
http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/c...l?schoolId=469




I think the assumption has been (based on the assumption made and spun by authors of news articles) that the young lady of attention last fall at Bama was released by all chapters. She dropped out of formal recruitment, thus the assumption, but perhaps not because all chapters released her.



FWIW, there are also women of other minorities in chapters at Bama. Even in the chapter most often featured in the press for releasing the trustee’s granddaughter.

Also FWIW, Alabama colleges and universities within an hour’s distance of Bama also have minority members in their NPC chapters – all of these campuses have AA NPC chapter members: University of Alabama Birmingham, Birmingham Southern, Samford, University of Montevallo, and the University of West Alabama – that I know of. And so do universities in other regions of the state. I don’t know if onlookers in other areas of the country realize that.

So in my mind, this seems less a state of Alabama issue (or less a problem persisting in the south, as some have generalized), and more an issue involving the huge intensive recruitment at Bama – and AA women as the minority underrepresented.



I agree – I understand as few as 2 (and at most 4) AA PNMs participated (at some point) in NPC recruitment at Bama last fall. Even with a COB round implemented specifically to recruit and pledge minority women, relatively few AA women joined. Unless far many more register for recruitment, I don’t know how the goal of “complete integration,” as recently passed by the SGA , will be accomplished. (not that I read the resolution, but it seems a lot like grandstanding after the fact)

I feel like any racial barriers to the NPC recruitment process have been moved aside as much as is institutionally possible. The question I have raised, however, is . . . will this be enough to accomplish that goal?

Would you want to be an AA woman who joined an NPC sorority in the middle of that hurly burly at Alabama last fall? I wouldn't. I'd feel like I was under a microscope with the Crimson, the nationals and the administration all looking at me. I'd feel like I was only being pledged because I was black and not because the sorority really wanted me. I'd feel like my bid was given grudgingly. I'd feel like I was a token member who was giving the chapter(s) cover for being as racist as they wanna be. In the second article posted to this thread, an AA PNM said that she chose to join AKA over an NPC sorority because she didn't feel entirely welcome at NPC sororities. I totally get that and I'd feel the same as her in that situation.

I don't think the system will ever completely integrate and I don't think that should be our goal. If you're counting what percentage of AA women are Greek on any campus, you have to count the women who join historically black GLOs in that percentage. It's not fair or true to say that Alabama has an all white sorority system. It doesn't. It does have an overly segregated system, though, and that system didn't treat AA PNMs fairly when it came to NPC recruitment.