for crying out loud...

[DeltAlum]

Uncalled for.

[hocnsoc81]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
Uncalled for.

Oh, come on, I was joking!

[PhiUSMmu]

I just heard from one of my sisters (as I was upset to hear about the sales on Ebay) that ours are being bought by alumni. I think that it's great that our alumni would care enough to get them back. You all have very good points. You can't really get upset at someone selling them for their benefit. If they know what they mean, then they have the opportunity to return them to National HQ. If they don't, then why would they keep them? However, since you know what they mean, and you know how important they are, why don't you buy them. That way, the seller is getting what they want and you get what you want. Sure, you're out twenty bucks or whatever for a pin for your sorority...but you're DOING something about it just the same. That's my input. And it's not about some nasty stuff.

[dzrose93]

Originally posted by PhiUSMmu
I just heard from one of my sisters (as I was upset to hear about the sales on Ebay) that ours are being bought by alumni. I think that it's great that our alumni would care enough to get them back. You all have very good points. You can't really get upset at someone selling them for their benefit. If they know what they mean, then they have the opportunity to return them to National HQ. If they don't, then why would they keep them? However, since you know what they mean, and you know how important they are, why don't you buy them. That way, the seller is getting what they want and you get what you want. Sure, you're out twenty bucks or whatever for a pin for your sorority...but you're DOING something about it just the same. That's my input. And it's not about some nasty stuff.

Ideally, we would all love to be able to reclaim our badges from E-Bay for $20 and return them to National HQ. But, unfortunately, what's happening is the pin collectors are bidding against the GLO members and the prices are skyrocketing. Thanks to the collectors, most badges can't be bought now on E-Bay for under $65. Some go higher than $500. I'm a dedicated alumna of my sorority, but I don't have $500 to spend on every badge I see on E-Bay. And neither do my sisters. We have created a Badge Rescue Fund that is used to try and save as many as possible, but there are always some that fall between the cracks. So, what I'm trying to say is, we're TRYING to do something about the problem -- but the collectors are making it very difficult.

[wptw]

Ebay 1998:
Collectors: ~15
Non-collectors: <10
New badge listings: 9 / week
Average close price: $28

Ebay 2001:
Collectors: ~15
Non-collectors: >300
New badge listings: 84 / week
Average close price: $90

Yep, must be the collectors driving up the prices.
Darned collectors!

[dzrose93]

Originally posted by wptw
Ebay 1998:
Collectors: ~15
Non-collectors: <10
New badge listings: 9 / week
Average close price: $28

Ebay 2001:
Collectors: ~15
Non-collectors: >300
New badge listings: 84 / week
Average close price: $90

Yep, must be the collectors driving up the prices.
Darned collectors!

Come on, wptw. Are you actually trying to make us believe that, in all of these cases, sisters are bidding against sisters and driving up the prices?

[wptw]

No. I'm not. Such an "absolute" approach to the argument would be ridiculous...

...just as ridiculous as a blanket statement pinning it all on collectors, don't you think?

Right/wrong debate aside, fact is that more demand = higher prices. Simple as that. More people know they're out there, so more people are bidding, so the price is going up.

Price goes up, dealers get starry-eyed and start pumping in more supply. More supply attracts more demand. Price goes up again. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.

wptw

[dzrose93]

Okay, wptw, so if members of the orgs aren't buying the badges and collectors aren't buying them, then who is? Who's responsible for the sudden increase in price?

The fact that there are more non-collectors bidding on badges than there used to be doesn't mean that GLO members are driving up the prices.

Let me give you an example.

There's an XYZ badge up for auction.

An XYZ sister places the first bid.

A collector outbids her.

The XYZ sister bids again.

The collector outbids her again.

The price is too high for the XYZ to continue, so she calls up another sister and tells her about the badge. The other sister has a little more cash to spend, so she takes over the bidding.

The collector outbids the new XYZ.

The new XYZ bidder bids again.

The collector outbids her again.

The price is now too high for the new XYZ, so she contacts another sister and suggests that they pool their money together and bid. The other sister agrees and she takes over the bidding.

The collector outbids her.

The 2 sisters who have pooled their cash can't afford to spend any more money than they've already bid, so they have to drop out of the auction.

The auction ends. The collector wins.

When all is said and done, one collector has bid, and 3 XYZ's have bid. More non-collectors have bid than a collector (to explain your E-bay figures), but none of the XYZ non-collectors have bid against each other. The price, however, has still gone up and the collector has still won the auction.

Who do you blame for the increase?

[wptw]

Okay, wptw, so if members of the orgs aren't buying the badges and collectors aren't buying them, then who is?

What? Where did I say that? OF COURSE collectors and members are the ones buying them.

What I'm saying is much simpler than all that anyway. Forget collectors and members and who is bidding against whom. These pins are highly valued and in limited supply. Agree? So, more people - ANY people - putting in a bid at ebay means higher prices. That is a fact of capitalism.

Who's responsible for the sudden increase in price?

We all are. Equally. Everyone who has ever bid on an auction has contributed to the demand, thereby contributing to the inflation. You’re right, you can’t attribute this entirely to sister vs. sister bidding. But I’m right too – you can’t say “collectors are driving up the prices” and walk away. That’s too simple and easy an analysis. Remember too that collectors were here first. So we’re not really “driving” anywhere. We’ve been parked here the whole time.

The XYZ sister vs. the collector scenario…

Sure. I’m sure that’s happened. But look at the counters at the bottom of the listings. These auctions are being viewed HUNDREDS of times! With that many people in the arena, there’s no way you’re going to keep the price down. That was my whole issue with Shadokat – since it’s blindingly obvious that plenty of people are already in the arena (collectors and non-collectors alike) poised to battle for the pins, why pull up to the arena with another 10 or 20 tour busses full of people?

Now Shadokat would have you believe that more gladiators in the arena means a better chance of fighting off the collectors. But dzrose, you’ve already acknowledged (correctly, I think) that some sisters are tag-teaming the auction and still not winning.

What it boils down to, I think, is this:

Who do you blame for the increase?

Maybe that’s why I finally jumped into this debate a few weeks ago. I don’t BLAME anyone. I just kind of accept it as a fact of supply and demand in an environment of increasingly internet-savvy consumers. And you shouldn’t blame anyone either. Keep rescuing the badges because I think you’re doing a good job, but quit whining about a problem that you yourselves contributed to.

wptw

[dzrose93]

Originally posted by wptw
Keep rescuing the badges because I think you’re doing a good job, but quit whining about a problem that you yourselves contributed to.

wptw

How are we contributing to the "problem" by bidding on badges that rightfully belong to our organizations? If collectors would stop buying OUR badges, then the only people who would be picking them up from E-Bay would be members of the GLO that the badge belongs to.

It's true that the badges wind up in other people's possession on occasion through estate sales and the like. However, if the badges are eventually put up for sale by those people then the GLO has a much better chance of rescuing them if there are no collectors around to snatch them up.

How is it that we, the GLO members who are purchasing these badges, are doing something wrong - "contributing to a problem" - when all we are doing is what we are SUPPOSE to do as respectful members of our organizations, i.e. rescue the badges and return them to HQ?

At any rate, I honestly didn't post in this thread to start another long-winded debate. I was simply responding to PhiUSMmu's post, because she seemed to be under the impression that buying back badges was a relatively easy and inexpensive thing to accomplish, which it certainly isn't thanks to the people who seem to be bidding against us at every turn lately.

[shadokat]

wptw--

The more GREEKS who I get into ebay to bid on/help get bids for a badge, the better. Nine times out of ten a member of a GLO will ask the current high bidder if they are a member of the GLO. You can argue this until you're blue in the face, and we're not going to agree. Instead of pointing out how wrong we are and right you are, agree to disagree and move on. I'm going to continue to post if I see pins and you're going to continue to collect pins, so I say table it.

[PhiUSMmu]

Alright, so maybe the bidding is getting out of hand. If a bidder is knowledgeable (sp?) about Greek pins/badges and is still selling them on Ebay to collecters knowing that sisters or alumnae are trying to buy them...then, they're wrong. Simply. I know they might not care. And I know that that's their prerogative. But the simple point is that it's a moral question. This is why it has been on debate for so long by so many people in here and in conversations. I think that it is morally wrong to sell a Greek pin/badge. So do most other Greek affiliates. If you don't feel that way, that's fine. You're entilted to your own opinions. However, freedom of speech reigns. A mistake is a mistake. But doing it just for money is almost like a black market. Like selling kids, if you knew that the kid was stolen, you wouldn't adopt it. But if you were desperate and you didn't know, and you did adopt it...can you really be held accountable? Maybe for lack of research but that's it. However, if you know that the kid is stolen, and you adopt him/her anyway...you're wrong. That's my point of view.

[wptw]

I’ve had an epiphany!

“…OUR badges…”
“…rightfully belong to OUR organizations…”
“…the GLO that the badge BELONGS to…”

All along I’ve been thinking to myself, “These are educated people. Surely they’ve taken ECON101. Surely they recognize that if supply is constant, every single bid contributes a small part to inflation. But still they want to argue that the laws of supply and demand that have remained unchanged since the dawn of human history have somehow magically been suspended”.

I was perplexed. Then it hit me: YOU DON’T CARE WHY PRICES ARE GOING UP!

Oh sure, that’s what you’re complaining about. And that’s what we’ve been arguing about for 2 weeks. But in the end, this has nothing at all to do with prices. You still haven’t gotten past the emotional MINE MINE MINE response!

Very interesting indeed. I’ll stop arguing the point then. But I’ll leave you with one more thing…

You keep saying that collectors are winning all of these auctions. Now, aside from maybe one person who we’ve all seen bidding outrageous amounts on NPC pins, the average collector really is not any more wealthy than any of the rest of you. We have the same type of jobs, the same salaries, the same utility bills and student loans. So if we all have roughly the same disposable income, my question to all of you is…

“Why are WE the collectors willing to pay a higher price than YOU the members?”

wptw

[deltaphi94]

Ok.... my 2 cents....

hypothetcal situation:
Badge comes from estate sale, buyer doesn't know what it is. Buyer then decides to post it on ebay.
Member of GLO sees badge on ebay, bids on it in effort to "rescue" the pin. Good plan.
GLO member then reports his or her findings to other members of the GLO via message board, email, what ever.
Other members of the GLO are now aware and interested, so they all bid against each other.
So, not only are there members bidding. Top that with the collectors, and the bids go to incredibly high.

In the end, it can't all be blamed on collectors. If a member of the GLO wants the badge, they will bid, but there will probably be someone, member or not, who has the means to outbid them.

Even if, in good faith efforts, members pool their money in order to rescue the badge, they are likely still going to bid against brothers/ sisters. I've seen on the national website of my GLO where women have found our badge on ebay and posted it there. I don't beileve that everyone is communicating back and forth about how much they have to add to the pool. I believe they are bidding against each other and increasing the final sale price. All to do a good deed.

[dzrose93]

Originally posted by wptw
“Why are WE the collectors willing to pay a higher price than YOU the members?”

Maybe because YOU the collectors are only trying to get one or two badges of each GLO, whereas WE the members are trying to save as many as humanly possible. Oftentimes, we have to let a few go that we would love to save simply because we've already bought 6 others in the same month -- and had to pay MUCH MORE than we would have if a COLLECTOR hadn't been bidding AGAINST us.

You're right. I'm an educated person. I've taken Economics 101. Add Microeconomics, Macroeconomics, and Global Economics to that and you'll have 4 of the courses that I made A's in during college. I understand supply and demand perfectly.

However, money is NOT the issue here. You keep trying to make it the issue because you don't want to admit that collecting these badges from a GLO of which you are not a member is an act that is not condoned by the GLO, and is wrong - maybe not legally, but morally in the eyes of other Greeks. And sometimes the morality of something is more important than the legality.

I agree with shadokat in that this subject is just a very touchy one. You're never going to agree with me on it, and I'm never going to agree with you. You seem like a nice person, wptw, but we just don't see eye to eye on this particular issue. Let's just drop it and move on to keep the peace, okay?