Does a shorter associate program lead to more drop-outs?

[itb2a]

In fraternities, shorter initiation periods in themselves are not the sole problem. There are other factors that influence this. I'm not going to address sororities in this post; their pledge selection is altogether different.

The colleges/Greek Life offices tend to have more sway over greek eligibility. Because more colleges are funding house expansion/building, they feel that they have standing to influence pledgings as well; after all, why not make sure that the house can repay the college's funding?

Another aspect is how the current college age kids interact. Now, interaction is considered to be a text message, a tweet, or a facebook update. It's the instant gratification that's important. And if that is the focus, turnover will just happen.

The last item is that the existing members seem to lack the skills of how to recruit a prospect. Selection is more important than before; if you
screw up a selection, it may be after initiation that it is found that there are issues or problems, hence turnover. The shorter period is not an issue as long as the chapter and the pledge can still discern whether compatibility exists. Most rush chairmen do not want to take the harder path of 'hey, this guy has qualities we like and we can help develop', althought this is typically how a business would recruit a new employee. After all, if the chapter is not helping it's members, what's the attraction to staying a member? And that's where the chapters seem to forget the advise of an alumni group or alumni advisor; because the rush chairmen do not perceive a benefit in asking alumni for help in recruiting, and because of that the rush chairmen tend to lose legacies.

Just my opinion.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by itb2a

The colleges/Greek Life offices tend to have more sway over greek eligibility. Because more colleges are funding house expansion/building, they feel that they have standing to influence pledgings as well; after all, why not make sure that the house can repay the college's funding?

Are you blaming deferred rush for this? Because I don't think deferred rush has a thing to do with it (guys or girls). Same goes for a GPA. Most schools have a minimum GPA for rushing/pledging that is FAR LESS than the national offices of the GLOs.

Or are you intimating that GL offices and administrators actually tell fraternities who to pledge? If that's the case, I'd like to see some concrete information.

[HQWest]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Are you blaming deferred rush for this? Because I don't think deferred rush has a thing to do with it (guys or girls). Same goes for a GPA. Most schools have a minimum GPA for rushing/pledging that is FAR LESS than the national offices of the GLOs.

Or are you intimating that GL offices and administrators actually tell fraternities who to pledge? If that's the case, I'd like to see some concrete information.

I think what they are trying to say is that GL offices are being conditioned to think more (i.e. more pledging) or bigger is better. This is leading to situations where they are encouraging expansion because quota is up even if one or two chapters are struggling to stay afloat. Another example would be bringing on a new chapter so the university doesn't have empty dorm space or an empty lodge.

Deferred recruitment (or semi-deferred recruitment like Cal) can be good - but ONLY if you have trouble convincing PNMs to try recruitment and explore Greek Life. It does not make you any less likely to have grade risks. It does not limit social behavior risks. (Anyone can be on their best behavior for one semester.) It does increase "tent talk", name calling, dirty rushing, and inappropriate bid promising.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by HQWest

I think what they are trying to say is that GL offices are being conditioned to think more (i.e. more pledging) or bigger is better. This is leading to situations where they are encouraging expansion because quota is up even if one or two chapters are struggling to stay afloat. Another example would be bringing on a new chapter so the university doesn't have empty dorm space or an empty lodge.

Expansion has nothing to do with who you (an individual GLO you) choose to pledge, which is what itb seemed to be talking about. And I've NEVER heard of a GL office who gave a shit whether an individual group's numbers were up or down - that is not their province. Ditto the empty dorm space - I've never heard of such a thing. More likely, the school eliminates it as Greek housing and turns it over to another student group or just opens it up to the general student population. I'll say again, concrete evidence of these things you cite please (i.e. name of school and GLO).

Originally Posted by HQWest

Deferred recruitment (or semi-deferred recruitment like Cal) can be good - but ONLY if you have trouble convincing PNMs to try recruitment and explore Greek Life. It does not make you any less likely to have grade risks. It does not limit social behavior risks. (Anyone can be on their best behavior for one semester.) It does increase "tent talk", name calling, dirty rushing, and inappropriate bid promising.

It also increases the amount of members who know EXACTLY what they're getting into (i.e. they know the group they're choosing is the "fat chapter" and they don't care because they've seen the "popular chapter" being bitches for a semester) - and most likely decreases dropouts during pledging or disaffiliation after initiation. And as has been pointed out on GC MANY MANY times, lots of the most competitive rushes - which take place before students have even had one college class - are already full of tent talk, name calling, dirty rushing and inappropriate bid promising.

Anyone who still views pre-freshman rush as a panacea making all things perfectly even is beyond having their head in the sand. It never was, and with the internet, it's even worse now.

[HQWest]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Expansion has nothing to do with who you (an individual GLO you) choose to pledge, which is what itb seemed to be talking about. And I've NEVER heard of a GL office who gave a shit whether an individual group's numbers were up or down - that is not their province. Ditto the empty dorm space - I've never heard of such a thing. More likely, the school eliminates it as Greek housing and turns it over to another student group or just opens it up to the general student population. I'll say again, concrete evidence of these things you cite please (i.e. name of school and GLO).



It also increases the amount of members who know EXACTLY what they're getting into (i.e. they know the group they're choosing is the "fat chapter" and they don't care because they've seen the "popular chapter" being bitches for a semester) - and most likely decreases dropouts during pledging or disaffiliation after initiation. And as has been pointed out on GC MANY MANY times, lots of the most competitive rushes - which take place before students have even had one college class - are already full of tent talk, name calling, dirty rushing and inappropriate bid promising.

Anyone who still views pre-freshman rush as a panacea making all things perfectly even is beyond having their head in the sand. It never was, and with the internet, it's even worse now.

Hey you asked - I answered.

If you want to spend your whole life thinking about nothing but recruitment then by all means come up with whatever crazy deferred recruitment you want or you can do recruitment within the first couple months of school starting (a la Ole Miss or Cal) get it over with and spend the rest of the school year on all of the reasons people wanted to be Greek in the first place.

[melindawarren]

Originally Posted by 33girl

It also increases the amount of members who know EXACTLY what they're getting into (i.e. they know the group they're choosing is the "fat chapter" and they don't care because they've seen the "popular chapter" being bitches for a semester) - and most likely decreases dropouts during pledging or disaffiliation after initiation. And as has been pointed out on GC MANY MANY times, lots of the most competitive rushes - which take place before students have even had one college class - are already full of tent talk, name calling, dirty rushing and inappropriate bid promising.

Anyone who still views pre-freshman rush as a panacea making all things perfectly even is beyond having their head in the sand. It never was, and with the internet, it's even worse now.

Or, honestly, first week of freshman year rush (which is what I had, and, at the time, seemed worse than pre-freshman rush-hey, pre-freshmen don't have homework! ).

I see nothing wrong with deferred recruitment? Maybe I'm the one missing something?

[pearlbubbles]

When I went through recruitment at my university, it was deferred. At the beginning of my Junior year, we switched back to to formal fall. I also saw a chapter close due to numbers during that time. My first two years in my chapter, quota was around thirty. Since my Junior year, it's been somewhere between seventy and eighty.

At the same time, we had maybe two to five people drop from each incoming pledge class my freshman and sophomore years. When we went back to formal fall, the number was a bit higher the first year, but dropped a bit the next year (and I can't comment on current statistics--though the economy certainly "helped" a bit when I was still there). In my experience, it seems like if a university has deferred recruitment, less women go through, but generally tend to stay in the organizations. With a formal fall style, the women you tend to lose would have been the ones that wouldn't have participated in a deferred recruitment to begin with. But, in my later years, I did see many members who probably wouldn't have gone through deferred recruitment really jump into the chapter and do great things. The same can be said for women who went through informal and COB. So in that case, I can't really say whether a fall recruitment or a spring recruitment is necessarily better, from a sorority standpoint, at least. (Fraternity recruitment, however, has its own idiosyncrasies.)

I definitely agree that it has a lot to do with the "instant gratification" nature of this generation. People go in expecting certain things and if they don't get them, it's not worth their time. (I've seen a lot of people doing this at my job recently too, which seems worse to me, but it's the same idea.) I do think that the years we focused on KROP ideas, even with the sophomores moving into the house, we had less dropping.

I think the important thing to keep members in the organizations is to continue specific programming with everyone. We used to have senior meetings my last year, and it was definitely nice to still feel like you had a voice and a role, even when you weren't necessarily as active in chapter proceedings.

[KSUViolet06]

I can only think of one or 2 (either WSU or Washington does, or both.) It's not a common practice.

With my deferred recruitment chapters who have housing, the women don't have the option to move in until fall. No one moves in right after recruitment in January.

[AXOmom]

Not WSU (which is Washington State). As VandalSquirrel mentioned - they move in mostly at semester and some sophomore year (but I think every single one of daughter's friends in sororities her freshman year moved in at semester break). UW moves in right away.

The problem with some schools and the housing contract (UO is in this situation) is that there is not enough housing for freshman and the school cannot require them to live in campus housing. They can't always assure housing to freshman. If you want housing you pretty much have to sign a contract with someone (school, rental, chapter house) by the spring. I would think that's a situation a lot of schools find themselves in.

In addition, there is no guarantee at a lot of the chapters that you will get to live in your sophomore year and some girls by junior year are settled in apartments and never end up living in.

[KSUViolet06]

^^^completely unrelated sidenote: even in the recession, I'm seeing a LOT of schools with on-campus housing that is literally overflowing. When I was in undergrad, the school was really strict with the live-on requirement because the dorms weren't always full (the rule was 2 years unless you owned a home or commuted within x miles.) There were situations where chapters had space in their houses for additional women halfway through the year, and had to go through Residence Service to pull teeth to get someone an exception to their housing requirement.

Fast forward to now: Residence Services will GLADLY let any freshman or soph out of their contract to move into Greek Housing as a fresh or soph (if the sorority has room) because the dorms are all full.

[AXOmom]

Yep, its different world than when I was there and most people lived in campus dorms at least two years. They rent out space at apartment complexes for freshman and they are building new dorms as we speak, but they've had a tough time keeping up. Interestingly, they aren't great about letting them out of the contracts (at least that's my understanding from people who have tried) and as you said, it would make more sense for them to be lenient.

For a number of reasons that have to do with the sororities housing contracts being a little behind in terms of need, they didn't have much room either (hers and I assume others have changed some bylaws to better address that issue).

Anyway, sorry to get things off track. Just wanted to point out that the requirements Vandal Squirrel mentioned at University of Idaho - students live on campus freshman year or at least first semester or in chapters and being guaranteed housing if they don't end up in a sorority- isn't currently an option at many schools.

[*winter*]

This thread has been very interesting. About 8 or 9 years after college, I started hanging around here and reading about sororities. I was shocked to find out that many of the things I did to get into Gamma Sigma Sigma would now be considered hazing! We did pledge books, interviews, pledge projects/activities, tests, etc. Of course none of it was done in a "hazing" sort of way...but there were points assigned and it was expected that you would WANT to get to know the history, the other sisters, and the organization. I personally liked the interviews, we got to make up our own questions so I found out some interesting things about people. I'm shy so it was a good conversation starter and a great way to discover connections with active sisters (shared major, interests, etc.) From there things develop into spending time together studying or sharing those interests, then into real friendships.

I get why anti-hazing is important, but I think we've reached a point where we are throwing out the baby with the bath water. People don't feel connected to organizations or to their "sisters" so why stick around? You can use these sorts of activities as "hazing" opportunities, but then again, even with all the "bans" on this, that and the other thing...people still get hazed. If people are that intent on hazing their NMs they will find a way...

[DGTess]

Originally Posted by *winter*

This thread has been very interesting. About 8 or 9 years after college, I started hanging around here and reading about sororities. I was shocked to find out that many of the things I did to get into Gamma Sigma Sigma would now be considered hazing! We did pledge books, interviews, pledge projects/activities, tests, etc. Of course none of it was done in a "hazing" sort of way...but there were points assigned and it was expected that you would WANT to get to know the history, the other sisters, and the organization. I personally liked the interviews, we got to make up our own questions so I found out some interesting things about people. I'm shy so it was a good conversation starter and a great way to discover connections with active sisters (shared major, interests, etc.) From there things develop into spending time together studying or sharing those interests, then into real friendships.

I get why anti-hazing is important, but I think we've reached a point where we are throwing out the baby with the bath water. People don't feel connected to organizations or to their "sisters" so why stick around? You can use these sorts of activities as "hazing" opportunities, but then again, even with all the "bans" on this, that and the other thing...people still get hazed. If people are that intent on hazing their NMs they will find a way...

I agree with you.

I nearly lost it when I was told one of my most cherished traditions as a collegian was eliminated because "someone" "might" consider it hazing. It had never (to the best of my knowledge) been anything but a pleasant occasion for any of the sisters in my year groups. I had not heard of any issues, but since there was no "education value" to it, it went away. I thought sororities were supposed to be another form of education, and never wanted to see a pledge period as just another class.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Lawyers and insurance companies, my friends, lawyers and insurance companies.

[KSUViolet06]

^^^Right.

It only takess one (for lack of a better word) asshole to take a tradition/event/etc. in a completely wrong direction.

Like people were bringing up the interview thing. That is probably a really great activity in the way that you all experienced it (harmless, fun, getting to know people, etc.)

Then some asshole decided, "after we're done interviewing that pledge, let's make her do 20 push ups to get our signatures." That activity has just taken a pointless and stupid turn.