Does a shorter associate program lead to more drop-outs?

[melindawarren]

First, I have a question: when did the shift from longer NM periods to shorter NM periods begin?

I ask because I wonder if maybe-just maybe-the economy of the last few years could be a cause of larger post-initiation dropouts. But I don't know when the NM period went from a semester to a few weeks, so I could be totally off-base.

I know some people who dropped during the NM period (several different sororities. I hate to sound clueless, but I only know-like, actually KNOW well enough to comment-three guys in fraternities, and I know they're all still in their respective orgs) because they realized the time commitment was too great. Unless there are groups out there where the time thing really just doesn't get mentioned until after initiation, I don't really see that as the problem.

Another thing I've wondered about-and this is just speculation, and I hope I don't get jumped all over for saying this, but it's something I've thought about-how big are the groups we're talking about here? I mean, there've been monster pledge classes in the last few years. I just think that there may be girls who drop after a certain amount of time because they just don't feel like they can make any headway in such a large group (I don't just mean leadership-wise. How can such a large group mix with a fraternity? What about sisterhood activities?). I can't really speak to it because I'm not in something very big, but I can only imagine that, with a huge group, someone could get lost in the shuffle. But this is all just speculation.

One last idea: maybe new member programs aren't targeting the important information. Maybe, if retention really is an issue, the new member program needs to address the lifelong bonds of a fraternity or sorority. My best friend and I just had a conversation about how most people our age are very focused on what's going on right now. Today's Wednesday (yes, it's very early Wednesday, but it's Wednesday nonetheless), and I've barely heard discussion of anything going on beyond Friday (she hadn't heard discussion of anything beyond the weekend, either, and she goes to another school). The concept of "lifetime membership" or, well, anything lasting a lifetime seems intangible to this generation because everything gets upgraded and re-released as new tomorrow, the next day or the day after. The concept of lifelong membership thrills me, but I get how some people just don't get the "lifelong" part.

Ok, I don't know if anything I've said links to anything else I've said. I just had some ideas/questions and the title of the thread intrigued me.

[DaffyKD]

Originally Posted by melindawarren

First, I have a question: when did the shift from longer NM periods to shorter NM periods begin?

MW, I don't know about any other sororities, but Kappa Delta changed to a shorter NM period at their 1993 convention. I do not know how the NM period works as I had been a alumna for a long time before the change. I do know that at least one chapter does do something with one of the local alumnae chapters so that the NMs can be introduced at a very early stage to the long time bonds that are formed. My AC will be meeting with some of the girls (initiated members and a few girls who became new members 2 weeks ago) for lunch on Saturday. We will do a Founder's Day event and share how KD is a long term part of our lives.

DaffyKD

[melindawarren]

Originally Posted by DaffyKD

My AC will be meeting with some of the girls (initiated members and a few girls who became new members 2 weeks ago) for lunch on Saturday. We will do a Founder's Day event and share how KD is a long term part of our lives.

That sounds like a really good way to reinforce the concept of lifelong commitment.

Originally Posted by DaffyKD

MW, I don't know about any other sororities, but Kappa Delta changed to a shorter NM period at their 1993 convention. I do not know how the NM period works as I had been a alumna for a long time before the change.

Originally Posted by Blondie93

I pledged in 1992, and my Theta chapter was among the very last to switch to a shorter new member period. By Fall 1993, when we switched, I believe all Theta chapters were shortened. At that time, ADPi nationally had completed (or almost completed, not sure) their switch. None of the other 8 chapters on my campus had switched, but many of them were being encouraged to do so by their HQs. I suspect the switch really ramped up by the mid 90s.

DaffyKD doesn't know (as she says in her post), but this leads me to another question: what is the difference between longer and shorter NM programs? That sounds like a ridiculous question, but did groups cut large amounts of information from their educational programs and things like that? How did they shorten them, and what did they lose in the shortening process? Did they have to cram so much in that the girls just feel lost?

Obviously, that's a tough question to answer, and you can't answer in too much detail, but I'm curious how NM programs changed once they were shortened.

[HQWest]

Originally Posted by melindawarren

That sounds like a really good way to reinforce the concept of lifelong commitment.

DaffyKD doesn't know (as she says in her post), but this leads me to another question: what is the difference between longer and shorter NM programs? That sounds like a ridiculous question, but did groups cut large amounts of information from their educational programs and things like that? How did they shorten them, and what did they lose in the shortening process? Did they have to cram so much in that the girls just feel lost?

Obviously, that's a tough question to answer, and you can't answer in too much detail, but I'm curious how NM programs changed once they were shortened.

When our group shortened the NM program, it took out some of the "getting to know you" activities, and switched to a more focused, meeting type format to cover specific important historical or philosophical ideal material. The problem is it is a kind of seminar format with outside reading, and before it was more like history class or learning with games. We have to be more organized now for it to work well. Several Big/Lil sis activities are now combined with chapter meetings. We actually have more than one option so that you can extend this out a little - say skip a meeting for Greek week when the girls will be doing a lot with the chapter anyway. The meetings are more focused on the new members and less on becoming involved with the chapter.

If you go and look at the chapter myths thread - famous people that aren't really Greek or weird legends that can't be true, I think a bunch of that springs up from the girls not really retaining that information when you have a really short pledge period.

[crescent&pearls]

I can't help but think that the changes in demands on students since we went to the shortened NM period in the early 90s, as well as the explosion of opportunities for students combined with changing student demographics have affected member retention across the board. For example, there wasn't a single member of my chapter during the four years I was an "active" who participated in a study abroad or semester-at-sea program. Today, the same university actively encourages every student in every major program to study abroad and even requires it for some majors. Few students lived on campus in university housing. Today, the univ requires most frosh to live in the dorms they built, and they offer incentives to sophs to stay living in the dorms even though the cost is far above living in Greek or off campus housing.

Almost every member of my chapter worked part time, but few took more than 12-14 units per semester. Most students expected to be on the 5 year plan, or more if they intended to get a teaching credential or professional license i.e. CPA, real estate, nursing, PT etc. Today I see fewer students are working while in college, both because there are fewer jobs for college students and there is a lot more pressure to graduate on schedule in 4 years because the cost of tuition and housing has multiplied exponentially. Financial aid makes it possible for more kids to go to college, and increasing enrollment has resulted in big recruitment numbers and opened up the doors for a more socio-economically diverse group of students to experience Greek Life. That's great, but overall GLOs haven't really adapted the programming or the member expectations much to mesh well with the broad group of students who are our members today. Even though we've made modifications to recruitment and the new member period, overall we're all still pretty much following the same model we were in the 1950's when most members were more alike socio-economically than they are today. So maybe we shouldn't be that surprised that what worked 50-60 years ago, or even 20-25 years ago, does not create the same results today.

[ComradesTrue]

I hold a position where I have access to my chapter's member database. The increase in resignations increased dramatically in the immediate years after the shortened iniation period was instituted and has held steady since that time. I won't release the exact numbers, as I feel that should be member info only, but suffice it to say that I think there is a statistically significant link.

For context, this is a chapter where total was 120 in the 90s, now 150. Dues are not astronomical, as the chapter houses are owned by the university and the 36 students who live in them pay the housing portion of dues. Any student who worked even 10 hours a week would be able to cover her dues each semester.

Originally Posted by melindawarren

First, I have a question: when did the shift from longer NM periods to shorter NM periods begin?

I ask because I wonder if maybe-just maybe-the economy of the last few years could be a cause of larger post-initiation dropouts. But I don't know when the NM period went from a semester to a few weeks, so I could be totally off-base.

I pledged in 1992, and my Theta chapter was among the very last to switch to a shorter new member period. By Fall 1993, when we switched, I believe all Theta chapters were shortened. At that time, ADPi nationally had completed (or almost completed, not sure) their switch. None of the other 8 chapters on my campus had switched, but many of them were being encouraged to do so by their HQs. I suspect the switch really ramped up by the mid 90s.

[HQWest]

Originally Posted by melindawarren

One last idea: maybe new member programs aren't targeting the important information. Maybe, if retention really is an issue, the new member program needs to address the lifelong bonds of a fraternity or sorority. My best friend and I just had a conversation about how most people our age are very focused on what's going on right now. Today's Wednesday (yes, it's very early Wednesday, but it's Wednesday nonetheless), and I've barely heard discussion of anything going on beyond Friday (she hadn't heard discussion of anything beyond the weekend, either, and she goes to another school). The concept of "lifetime membership" or, well, anything lasting a lifetime seems intangible to this generation because everything gets upgraded and re-released as new tomorrow, the next day or the day after. The concept of lifelong membership thrills me, but I get how some people just don't get the "lifelong" part.
.

I don't think it has anything to do with the shortened new member period. I think that this might be why we see more women resigning as members, but I think the more girls were resigning as new members early. I think MW hit it on the head when she mentioned the generational shift to a very now focused group in combination with huge recruitment numbers. I think there are a lot of girls who walk in on Bid Day and expect to have 100 new best friends, and when they aren't suddenly Miss Popular Elle Woods they are disappointed. They set their expectations so high that when we don't meet them or they don't get their first choice they get unhappy. RPW helps more women get placed, but still a lot of girls get their second choice, and its getting a lot harder to help them find their way and be happy in the chapter.

On the one hand we encourage women to go through recruitment to meet people, but some of them, once they do, that was really all they wanted to do. Others like the idea of a sorority, but once they found out about grade requirements, study hours, philanthropy hours, and that sorority women are expected to behave like ladies, they lost interest. Throw in a tough economy and that can be one more thing they are trying to juggle with college.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by melindawarren

Another thing I've wondered about-and this is just speculation, and I hope I don't get jumped all over for saying this, but it's something I've thought about-how big are the groups we're talking about here? I mean, there've been monster pledge classes in the last few years. I just think that there may be girls who drop after a certain amount of time because they just don't feel like they can make any headway in such a large group (I don't just mean leadership-wise. How can such a large group mix with a fraternity? What about sisterhood activities?). I can't really speak to it because I'm not in something very big, but I can only imagine that, with a huge group, someone could get lost in the shuffle. But this is all just speculation.

I think that the girls who would drop out solely because of a ginourmous pledge class size are girls who were led to expect (by moms or sisters who attended VERY different type schools) a completely different experience. Ditto girls who were raised hearing about SEC size classes and then come to the Northeast for school and are flabbergasted by their "big" pledge class of 20.

The softer (I won't say shorter, because for many chapters, it HASN'T become any shorter) approach to pledging begain in the mid 90s. Greek life was in the toilet and I think this was a desperate attempt to retain members. It has backfired completely, IMO.

Much of what has been cut out has been the time available for the women to get to know the history, and also to get to know the chapter members (through interviews, coke dates etc). It's pretty delusional to rush the way that we do, and then not carry that on into pledging, i.e. "you joined not because you love the philanthropy or our values, but mainly because you liked the girls you met at this particular chapter. However, continuing to build that relationship isn't really going to be part of your pledging - everything is going to be focused on the national organization." In other words...the NPC groups are trying to rush like they always did, and then thinking they'll be able to get the kind of member loyalty the NPHC groups have. It doesn't work that way.

[melindawarren]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

Also, and this is just my own opinion here, I feel like there's a link in retention and the Big-Little Sis program. Too often, I think the Big/Little relationship becomes mostly about gifts and chapters don't use it to its full potential as a MENTOR relationship, which is what I feel it's meant to be. My Big did WAY more for me than just give me presents. I am who I am today in Sigma because she modeled involvement to me and I said "I want to be like that."

See, that's the thing. We didn't get any gifts from our bigs (that's a lie: we got a small gift during the reveal, but it's not like we got gifts throughout the week). Instead, we spent the week "getting to know" our bigs (without knowing who they were, obviously). I liked ours a lot, actually. I felt like, even though my big and I were close before, I didn't really know her that well until big/little week. But we also learned a lot about each other's bigs and our other "family members." In short, our big/little week was centered on bonding and getting to know each other better. It was really enjoyable and I remember leaving the revelation and thinking, "wow, I am so glad I got to know this group of girls!" I seriously loved them a million times more after that week. I don't know if I would have felt so close to everyone if I'd just gotten a bunch of gifts.

Originally Posted by 33girl

Much of what has been cut out has been the time available for the women to get to know the history, and also to get to know the chapter members (through interviews, coke dates etc). It's pretty delusional to rush the way that we do, and then not carry that on into pledging, i.e. "you joined not because you love the philanthropy or our values, but mainly because you liked the girls you met at this particular chapter. However, continuing to build that relationship isn't really going to be part of your pledging - everything is going to be focused on the national organization." In other words...the NPC groups are trying to rush like they always did, and then thinking they'll be able to get the kind of member loyalty the NPHC groups have. It doesn't work that way.

Wow, definitely. I mean, during rush, you're supposed to get to know the girls. You aren't supposed to become an XYZ because Heal the Bay is your favorite charity, nor are you supposed to fall in love with ABC because their values and mission closely align with your personal views. You're supposed to find the place where you fit best. But then, when you're a new member, as you said, it's all about the history and philanthropy and values. That's quite a disconnect, actually.

Admittedly, I'm the researching type (no duh) and I actually made charts with the name, founding date and location, colors, symbols, mascots, jewels, flowers and philanthropies of each sorority on the USC campus (I did one for Berkeley, too, because my best friend goes there and I hoped that she'd rush. She didn't), mostly so I didn't wear something I shouldn't wear (like anchor jewelry or anything with a fleur-de-lis), but also to familiarize myself with the histories of the groups. Most of my friends who rushed were kind of shocked to discover that they had to learn about the orgs they joined (not SC people; high school people).

There's definitely a disconnect, but I would assume that this disconnect would cause more dropouts right off the bat (like, the day that new members start new member education), rather than after initiation.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by melindawarren

See, that's the thing. We didn't get any gifts from our bigs (that's a lie: we got a small gift during the reveal, but it's not like we got gifts throughout the week). Instead, we spent the week "getting to know" our bigs (without knowing who they were, obviously). I liked ours a lot, actually. I felt like, even though my big and I were close before, I didn't really know her that well until big/little week. But we also learned a lot about each other's bigs and our other "family members." In short, our big/little week was centered on bonding and getting to know each other better. It was really enjoyable and I remember leaving the revelation and thinking, "wow, I am so glad I got to know this group of girls!" I seriously loved them a million times more after that week. I don't know if I would have felt so close to everyone if I'd just gotten a bunch of gifts.

You know, this just reminded me of something...during rush, you put the girls you want most with the best rushers, but during big/little pairings, everyone gets a little, so some "littles" are left with the girls who were not great rushers. But only one of them was my little; the other actually went to someone who had been on the computer committee. I took the other girl out for coffee or something shortly after the reveal, but it's just not the same. I would guess that maybe one-third of my class preffed more than two-thirds of the class below us.

This isn't to say that someone can't be a great big if they are a lousy rusher, but the better rushers are more likely to make the little feel like an insta-friend.

[KSUViolet06]

My chapter didn't do "everyone gets a Little." NMs had a list of women eligible to be Bigs and listed their top 5 in a ranked order, potential Bigs did the same and they were matched as best as possible. This obviously leads to some people not getting Littles, as the more outgoing chapter members are usually the top choices.

I went 2 years without getting one (at the time it was "zomg I'll never get one and no one likes meee!!!" but looking back it was because I wasn't extra outgoing--I was an okay rusher, not the best) then I ended up meshing really well with my Little because she (like me) wasn't really super outgoing. So I think it just depends on how chapters do things.

Also, I've seen it happen where a chapter makes Big/Little all about "we only want the super cute blondes in our fam because our fam is the supercute fam, yay!!!" and that (again) sells the relationship short and reduces it to pointless present giving and "omg yayyyy cutest fam EVER!"

Sidenote: Murphy's Law of Sorority Life states that "zomg supercutest little EVERRRRR" type pairs WILL hate each other by senior year and nothing good will come of their pairing except drama which results in one or more people quitting.