Hazing: Is it always bad?

[JezebelASA]

wow, i know i'm just adding what many of us have said already - there is no such thing as "good" hazing. those interviews you've all been talking about? we do those in our new member education. we're all there, new and initiated sisters, and we all take turns talking about ourselves, why we're there, our favorite things... stuff like that. it's not mandatory or anything, it's just a fun part of all the learning we do. we also do little activities like that at rush parties so we can learn if we are right for the girl and if she's right for us.

and by the way, ASA nationals does not condone hazing of any kind. i know we're not alone in that either. i was NOT hazed, i never felt pushed into anything, and i would NEVER try to push a new or old sister into something she didn't want to do.

there is an archaic custom that a lot of our alumnae use at formals and such, called "scrolling." basically if the older sister, the one with the lower "scroll number," tells you to do something, you are supposed to do it... that is still hazing, and it's wrong. we discussed it once and decided we didn't want any part of it, and from my class on, we don't do anything they "scroll" us to do - what are they going to do? we're active, they aren't... so honestly, there's no point in participating in something so silly.

hope i didn't upset anyone,

heather

[dekeguy]

Have I missed something crucial here? It seems to me that there are two main trends of thought going on in this discussion. One view is that a candidate for the privelege of lifelong brotherhood with those with which the candidate wishes to bond should have those priveleges conferred with little or no effort on that candidate's part via a path which is carefully constructed to offer no obsticles, no challenges, and no opportunities for the neophyte to find the strength of character to excel and merit the priveleges he desires. The other seems to fall in line with the position I feel most appropriate. That position accepts the simple truth that hazing is out of place but demands that a pledge meet the challenges placed before him and his pledge class so that his character can be tested and his dedication and worthyness proven. I do not suggest attempting to get round the law or find loopholes in the rules of fair play. I suggest that pledgeship is the golden opportunity for a candidate to see for himself if he really wants what he is attempting and how he can determine for himself whether he can rise to a goal that is not given easily. The so called "me generation" has been rightly criticised for wanting it all, wanting it now, and wanting it easy. I'd like to know that my brothers are made of better stuff. I'd also like to feel that they can be proud of me as well. I think pledgeship should be tough and demanding. I also believe that it must be well thought out and designed to forge the steel of true accomplishment and true brotherhood. No silly games, no room for some borderline sadistic bull, but real challenges building real brothers. Would you really want to be part of an outfit that gave you a pledge of lifelong brotherhood, true friendship, and everything that goes into the making of these just for the asking? If you go out for a team don't you expect to earn your place on that team and work for the privelege?
All of this seems so simple and so crucial to the whole concept of being Greek that I am a bit mystified that it seems so difficult to understand. In sum, no hazing but serious opportunities to excell and meet the challenges of excellence. No, I don't think that this is an outmoded or naive point of view.

[Kapsig1]

quote:
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Originally posted by SAEactive
From "The Record of Sigma Alpha Epsilon" (Winter 2002, pg. 60)

Fraternity / Insurance Cost per member:

Beta Theta Pi / $75
Kappa Sigma / $60
Phi Delta Theta / $115
Sigma Alpha Epsilon / $124
Sigma Chi / $80
Sigma Phi Epsilon / $74

(The above information gathered from the Fraternity Executives Association)
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Thanks for the info! Let me help others who read my original post. I am the Finance Comissioner for the fraternity, not a chapter of the fraternity. So the purpose of the request was to examine the rising costs of our poor behavior together. The above numbers look to be a little more recent than the last FEA report I had. But that data tends to trail the "real time" numbers significantly.

Our overall costs will increase dramatically this year. Kappa Sigma decided about 2 years ago to "Tier" our chapters based on violations. So, like your car insurance, if you've got the fraternal equivalent of speeding tickets or wrecks, your chapter pays more. But our chapters on Tier 1 (no violations, etc) will still pay more in the future.

I also know that many orgs are in the market for a renewal/new policy as I write this. I also know that the last two years have been particularly high claim/award years for greeks, and Kappa Sigma too. We've all seen the articles.

The immature decsions that are being made by each of us, affects the future of the system. I predict that if claims continue at their current level, and if settlements and awards continue to increase at their current rate, that NONE of us will be able to afford insuance in 8 to 10 years.

For those who self insure (everyone does to a degree) it won't take more than 10 average major claims to wipe out the richest reserve currently held.

This is the single largest threat to our existence, and it all boils down to two things: alcohol and hazing. Period. Our insurance should be for accidents. Accidents raise premiums, but accidents don't generate NEAR the number and size of jury awards.

So, you hazing proponents - just keep on killing us all.

Brad

[shadokat]

You know Brad, I read your post and was curious how sororities measured up to that insurance yardstick. Even at our largest chapters with large houses, women probably don't pay more than $40 a year for insurance. And at the smaller, unhoused chapters, it's between $15-30. Now mind you, all of this is based upon previous violations, the atmosphere of campus, the "risk" involved.

With more sorority incidents coming out lately, I can imagine sorority women will soon be experiencing these increases as well, but thankfully, NPC has helped us keep insurance costs down by removing alcohol from our housing.

You're exactly right though...the hazing proponents will keep your insurance costs through the roof. And it's a shame for those fraternities who really do have positive new member programs.

[DeltAlum]

Shadowkat,

I don't know any specific numbers, but sorority liability insurance is MUCH lower. The reason cited for that by the underwriters is that sorority houses are dry.

According to "Fraternal Risk Management Times" over 90% of ALL fraternity claims are alcohol related.

It's not that hard to figure out, is it?

[Kapsig1]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
Shadowkat,

I don't know any specific numbers, but sorority liability insurance is MUCH lower. The reason cited for that by the underwriters is that sorority houses are dry.

According to "Fraternal Risk Management Times" over 90% of ALL fraternity claims are alcohol related.

It's not that hard to figure out, is it?

The 99' average for those sorotities reporting to FEA was $21 per year, compared to the men's avg of $89.

Over the years, we have been willing partners to the masterful shift of liability to our houses. We can point fingers all over the place - including in the mirror! But it will be interesting to watch over the next few years, as sorority chapters continue to ignore the Alcohol-Free Social Function policies of their organization's. When the plaintiff's attorney's get a hold of the creative circumvention of those policies, I have no doubt that the sororities will find themselves party to many more suits than in the past.

But the dollars aren't the point! It infuriates me that my undergraduate brothers are willing to gamble their individual and collective futures on some inane need to help the women cheat the system, pack the house with a bunch of people who could care less about it sober, then participate in the providing of alcohol to anyone who can stumble to the bar....all in the hopes of satisfying their libidos.

Alcohol is not the culprit! Forbidding it from the house doesn't work - ask Farmhouse, they did it in 74'. Their loss history is not significantly better than anyone else's of similar size. They pay roughly $75 per man, which isn't much lower than the average.

Mix in that the VAST majority of hazing injuries and death result from forced consumption of alcohol, and it's enough to make me check myself into the funny farm.

The only answer I can come up with is vigilance! Absolute vigilance against hazing and alcohol violations. Pull every pin of every member that is convicted of violating the policies and do our best to rebuild the chapters.

And I'm spent............

Brad

[DeltAlum]

Brad,

I could not agree with you more. I have never been a supporter of "dry" housing, but I would argue that at least the sororities don't have the big parties, etc. I think everyone who wasn't born last night knows that there is alcohol in sorority houses.

What I didn't point out in my post above is that a fairly substantial part of the damage resulting in the 90% alcohol related plus claims is caused by visitors to the house -- including women invited to parties.

Frankly, I'm getting so fed up with chapter closings due to alcohol and hazing that I am wondering seriously whether it makes any sense to keep volunteering. I don't really want to be an officer if the Fraternity ever folds -- God forbid. I'm not ready to pull the plug yet, but the more I read Fraternal News and other publications -- and then read some of the posts from hazing proponents on this forum, it just makes me sick.

Our brothers (and sisters) need to wake up and help assure the future of our organizations and look beyond the next party.

While I also agree that some hazing definitions are absolutely ridiculous -- it simply doesn't matter. The law is the law. The rules are the rules. That's the way it is.

Sorry for he vent.

Thanks again for the statistics.