Hazing: Is it always bad?
 

I will making a speech to a group in my city about hazing. I am a member of a local fraternity that was founded in 1923. We are a fraternity that has only one chapter, so we don't have a national. I was initiated in 1992 and during my pledge season, myself and all 15 of my pledge brothers were "hazed." Hazed under the dictionary definition of hazing, that is. Which I take to mean: anything that anyone may consider embarrasing, or a little hard to do. I have looked at many threads about hazing here, and I guess I would consider most of what was done in my pledge season as pledging. We did do many things that were hard and difficult and it took me and my 15 pledge brothers to get through it. We struggled and fought and persevered. And in the end I was proud to call these men my brothers. I was also paddled. One lick, one time. I didn't mind, because it was either me or someone else, so I wanted to get it. My pledge brothers felt the same way. However, I do not agree with a lot of the hazing that I am reading about. The excess drinking, the physical abuse or the degrading stuff. I can tell by what I have read here, that most of you disagree with hazing, I can also tell that most of you have not been hazed. What I would really like to find out, is if there is anyone that has been hazed that agrees with it. If you do, why. And just to a small extent, tell me what kind of things did you do. I would also like to hear from those of you that were hazed and don't agree with it. I would really like to use this forum as evidence for my speech in Louisiana. If you do not want your message printed and used in my speech, please say so.

Hootie, Luv you for that and Luv you for your PIX!!!:)

hazing
 

We don't haze in my chapter either, nor do I agree with physical abuse or anything of the sort. However, I do have something that is somewhat interesting and funny to share. After the pledging period is over and we ask them if there's anything they didn't like or would like to change about the program, almost all of them say they wish we did more scary stuff. They wished we would do stuff like call them up in the middle of the night and tell them to meet somewhere, etc. becuase they said that would have made it more fun. They wanted more pressure. Can you believe that? I know that when I went through I expected stuff like that to happen because that's the stereotype, the kind of stuff you see in movies. I guess some just expect and sort of look forward to that adrenaline rush type stuff that used to go on. Just thought I's share that with everybody.....has anyone else's chapter experienced this?:confused: :)

Yes!

Our chapter has that too. When I went through, we made little interview sheets to get to know the inititated members. What fun! Stuff like "where were you born" and "how old were you the first time you kissed a guy?" Totally harmless, but we are not allowed to do that anymore. I still look at my interview folder when I get to missing some of my sisters who have graduated. Stuff like that is barely worth reading when you read the stories about the alcohol poisonings.

Did I feel degraded? No, actually, I felt empowered-gave me an excuse to talk to the women who intimidated me (and I don't mean they went out of their way to do that-what frosh New Member in her right mind wouldn't have been a little reserved in front of Senior sisters?)

Did it cause me physical harm? No, but I bet some of the old sisters in the house had sore hands from writing on so many of the forms!

Would I be ashamed to tell my Grandmother, or Pastor about them? NO!



When our 'new' New Members see our interview folders, or hear us talk about them, they ask why we don't do them any more.

Sheesh, sometimes people get a bit overzealous about calling things hazing. Just my $.02.

Lordy ...
 

After hearing of all the hazing incidences (men and women) that have occured this past MONTH, much less fall, I really can't believe that anyone could accept hazing.

There are enough pressures on Greeks already without flouting the worst PR thing that could happen - hazing. Univeristies don't want Greeks because of the bad PR of Greeks. Students don't want to join because of (primarily) hazing and the lack of individuality.

Hazing just reinforces the "Greek" stereotype - what does it have to take for people to realize that your actions are what people see as Greek behavior - positive or not. Sisterhood and brotherhood means having respect and trust of each other, that hazing in itself is morally (much less legally) wrong. These are KIDS we are talking about - they don't know their own limits, and every year, there is a tragedy that someone has to live with for the rest of their lives - I don't think that is what we send our sons and daughters to college for.

I was an older student when I joined, and had my chapter even attempted to 'haze' me, I would have walked as well as my entire NM class. There is no place or reason for hazing anymore - if you can't build brotherhood or sisterhood on common interests and positive experiences, and most importantly, RESPECT without hazing, well, you have truly missed out the fabulous friends I still have after pledging 9 years ago.

*Sorry* to be on a soapbox, but I could have made friends without a sorority - I just felt I could contribute more to student life than just a student number. As an alumnae now, I supervise and counsel chapters, and they have a zero tolerance towards hazing, and pride themselves on it. I only hope that other young men and women have the chance to experience Greek life positively

Just some food for thought ....

I am rapidly coming to the belief that "hazing" is becoming a loaded term similar to "rape" or "animal abuse". IT is a word that has become so politicized, filled with symbolic meaning, and sensitized, that like the descriptive words above, it has become near impossible to discuss the issue rationally. A literal Taboo topic.

The word has become almost a slogan. How do you argue against a slogan? You don't, you either choose sides or shut up.

Its a pretty predictable result of human behavior being made into a political issue. *yawn* And equally as boring and as dangerous as everytime it has been done before.



I guess the world is changing a little bit, I mean now you can "almost" talk about "masturbation" vs. it being a political/social/religious taboo from the past . . . although I am still waiting for my palms to turn hairy and my sight to go blind, Although honestly I should have just spontaneously combusted by now ;)

There are many that probably think that reference was totally off topic, buts its the same technology to establish a social control around a word and an ill-defined behavior. Masturbation is becoming a deconstructed taboo in the mainstream . . . hazing is currently being constructed into an active taboo topic that can be invoked to condemn people for behaviors that are vaguely defined with uncertain consequences.

James, you have finally hit the nail on the head. However, you didnt' really answer any of the questions I asked to discuss. You did though, provide me with the answer to why no one is willing to discuss this topic maturely. I think that maybe I should have narrowed my topic down a little bit. Maybe to "Do you think that the FIPG definition of hazing is too strict?" I have come to the conclusion that this website is loaded with brothers and sisters who haven't been hazed and have no tolerance for it. I think James said it right that the word "hazing" has such a negative connotation that no one seems to be able to look beyond the word. I want to reiterate that I do not agree with nor condone any extreme forms of hazing. I get just as sick as you all do when I see something in the news about a pledge, or NM as you guys call them, going to the hospital or even dying because of some active making them drink too much. It sickens me to hear of pledges having to go the hospital because someone beat their ass 30 times with a paddle. I think that kind of hazing is stupid, irresponsible, degrading, and utterly wrong. But I also think that it is because of these frats' actions that frats that do haze in a controlled way are lumped together in the same category. NeonPi you said that many students don't go Greek because of hazing. In my fraternity, we only rush guys that go Greek because of hazing. We don't keep very many secrets from the guys that rush us. They know pretty much exactly what they're getting into when they sign their bid. We do not do anything that puts our pledges in any danger. We also give our pledges the power to tell us if they refuse to do something. That is one of the biggest things that we want our pledges to understand. You should never do anything that you would not want your brother to do. We allow our pledges to stand up for themselves. That does not mean we don't go beyond the FIPG definition of hazing. It just means that we do so in a respectful and very careful way. No pledge has to prove their loyalty or whatever by drinking. That's just not what we do. We do require signatures for them to get to know the actives. They are required to do some physical fitness activities to stay in shape. And there are some things that we do that are funny and stupid. But never anything that puts our pledges' safety at risk. I think that there are a lot of other fraternities and maybe even sororities that feel the same way and "haze" in a responsible manner. I'm not sure if any those people look at this website, but I know first hand of at least 15 other frats and sororities at 8 different universities in 4 different states that do. I have read all the opinions of why hazing is horrible and so bad and most, if not all, of these opinions are from people who have never gone through anything. If were never hazed, how do you know how bad it is? I feel sorry for crazyleggedsigma that their sorority can't have an interview form filled out. Am I the only one that thinks that is absolutely ridiculous? I passed out questionairres to people at school about their hazing experiences. Is this hazing too? Look, I'm all for kicking people out of school that do intentional harm to another person. Making someone drink, no matter how much, or beating the crap out of someone is intentional harm. But I sincerely feel that some hazing should be allowed. Especially if the pledges agree to it up front.

I've said this on a lot of threads. I'll say it once again.

It doesn't make a damn bit of difference what I think, what James thinks or what anyone else on this board thinks.

Hazing is against the law.

Hazing is against the rules of every National/International Greek Letter Organization I'm aware of. They have reasons for that. Liability is one. There are others.

Unless someone changes that, if a chapter hazes and gets caught, it will lose its' charter and be closed.

That alone makes it bad -- or at least its' results.

Reflecting on my post above, I think I'd better take a deep breath and back off on my frustration regarding this kind of question.

Obviously, most of us do try to seriously and fairly consider what the other members think. I am always impressed when I read James arguments, whether I agree with them or not.

My deep concern is for the chapters that are being closed because they simply won't abide by the rules.

At Karnea, the every two year Delta Tau Delta International conference, they hang banners for each chapter on the walls around the ballroom. Four years ago, to make a point, at the opening ceremony the chapter consultants were asked by the President to take down the banners of all of the chapters that had closed since the last Karnea.

There were eleven of them. In two years.

It was sobering -- with no pun intended.

I think (hope) that is one of the reason that very few Delt chapters have been in the news for hazing/alcohol violations. Don't misunderstand. I know that some of our chapters break the rules and some probably still haze secretly. We're not angels. But they know that if we catch them, they're history.

By the way, we figure that the Fraternity has the manpower to colonize two or three schools per year.

Do the math.

In two years we lose eleven chapters and, hopefully, colonize six. What does that do for the overall size, strength and stature of the Fraternity?

Nothing good.

And I just have to keep coming back to the fact that it isn't only against the rules -- it's against the law.

I would hate like hell to be the advisor of a chapter that is closed because of breaking the rules/law. I'm not particularly interested in getting sued either.

So, while I candidly admit that I think some of the definitions of hazing are crazy -- it just doesn't matter unless the laws or definitions can be changed.

Fraternally,
DeltAlum

DeltAlum, I hear what you're saying. You're right that in the regard that as long as hazing is against the law, it's not exactly the best thing to do. The main thing that I disagree with, is that it does matter what James thinks, it does matter what you think, and it does matter what I think. What fraternities and sororities need to realize is that if we don't stand up for what we believe in, we will continue to let lawmakers dictate what we do. I'm not saying that my definition of hazing is right. I just feel that the current FIPG definition is ridiculous. You said it yourself that you think some of the definitions of hazing are crazy. It does matter in that you and all of us have the power to get it changed. Hazing laws have been put in place to protect people. Tell me who needs to be protected from filling out an interview form. What normal person will be scarred for life by being called "pledge" for a couple of months. Individual states have written laws against hazing. I'm not 100% sure, but I think that each state's law against hazing is different. I'd really like to know what is different and I think that it will probably be different from the FIPG definition. Unlike Delta Tau Delta, the fraternity I belong to does not have a national. We have absolutely no desire to have a national. But that does not mean that we don't use just old fashioned common sense when it comes to hazing our pledges. The main thing that I've seen in the news about hazing all stems from alcohol. I think that alcohol has caused the word hazing and it's definition to snowball. I don't necessarily think that alcohol should be barred from rush functions or fraternity functions as long as those consuming are of legal age. I do agree with strict punishment for those fraternities and the members who force pledges to drink any amount. But like I said before, I would really like to discuss the other aspects of hazing. I think most people will agree with you that some definitions of hazing are crazy. I think that if more people would talk about the other aspects of hazing and get away from the drinking and beating the crap out of someone, hazing could be a much more rational topic to discuss.

Clarification
 

Just to clairfy ....

When I said "students don't want to join because of hazing", I was referring to students who read the news reports/rumours on campus/ etc. and want nothing to do with Greeks because they don't want to go through the hassle/possible hazing themselves.

that's all :)

PS - you may want to visit the Centre for the Study of the College Fraternity (http://www.indiana.edu/%7Ecscf/) - they run LOTS of studies, and have interesting information - good and bad

:D

is it always bad?
 

Dear all previous posts,

To the original post let me explain myself before I answer your question. My chapter in the past has been known for hazing. We have moved past that to a now non-hazing program. I was hazed, and in a untraditional matter. No for me to answer the question you asked. I do believe hazing is good for pledges to a certain extent. I would not be who I am now if it was not for pledgeship. Now in no way do I condone embarassment, forcing someone to drink or do drugs, or making someone do something they do not want to do. When you push a pledge class to do something together it builds unity.

The way I feel after a non-hazing program as been instituted now is that you can create those same situations without hazing. And the thing you need to remember most is that flat out it is against the law. And to answer your question about state law's most state's describe the law as forcing someone to do something that the whole chapter does not participate in.

I don't really want to get into the whole "is hazing wrong" thing again, but, Beggar, I would recommend using the NIC definition of the word rather than the dictionary (granted that you're not a member of NIC, I still think it would be more appropriate/applicable).

Apples and oranges
 

:o In regards to the "hazing" acts that happen in some parts of our military.........

I don't think that you can really compare the US military (protecting our country, risking your life, wars, etc.) with joining a GLO. The two just can't be compared.