Michael Vick and Job offer

[rhoyaltempest]

And I wasn't implying that we shouldn't be passionate about all types of just causes, but that we should be JUST as passionate about human rights. And overall, we are not.

[I.A.S.K.]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Nice try (by nice I mean really F***ing lame) but Ben has not been convicted or proven guilty, as Vick was. Oh and it's Roethlisberger.

It is really f***ing lame that if Vick were not black his sentence would have been entirely different. Also, OJ was never convicted or proven guilty. Guess that means you can be guilty and not be proven such.

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

I'm really sick and tired of people making this comparison, because it's effing lame. Stallworth was determined to have been negligent and reckless in a one-time incidentTHAT KILLED SOMEONE! A person, you know, like a human! He did not have a history of DUI, bad driving, or other reckless behavior. It only takes driving drunk one time to KILL A PERSON! Guess Stallworth proves that. Vick, on the other hand, continued this "operation" for over two years. He didn't just run a dog-fighting ring for a month or two. NO. His "operation" went above and beyond simple dog-fighting. He killed animals who didn't "win," he set up rape racks to allow other dogs to violate each other when it wasn't appropriate, he didn't take care of the animals he had in his ownership.
The only proof that was given as to Vick being involved in the actual harming of dogs was the testimony of his co-defendants who flipped on him to get a better deal for themselves. He was convicted of and admitted to funding the dog fighting ring.

I'm not an "animal person," I didn't grow up with pets, but I do understand that when you purchase a pet in this country, you are implicitly agreeing to take care of it and not have it killed or raped when it doesn't fill the sick fantasies you and your band of thugs might have for it.
The key word here is PET. For Vick and the people who were fighting dogs these were not pets. These weren't "members of the family" or mans best friend. They're things or items. Do you get upset when toy cars are smashed into each other by children? No, because they're not important they're just things. While there is a major difference between a dog and a toy car (the dog is living) for many the dog is of almost equal importance and for some even less important. In some places the toy car is worth more than the dog. If Vick was fighting Roaches would we be talking about this? No. But a roach is an animal just like a dog is. The same way we have little regard for roaches Vick had little regard for dogs. "I didnt know people were concerned about the health and welfare of their animals" this is what Vick said in a press conference. This leads me to believe that to Vick then the dog was nothing more than a thing. He has served his sentece and paid his debt. He cannot be punished further. He served more time than many spousal abusers, rapists, killers, and other people who commit crimes against people.

Kill a person, cool. Drive drunk, OK. Carry guns, knives, and other weapons, fine. Rape a woman, no problem! Fight dogs...you're fired! Gotta love those PETA losers. Seriously, if we're going to rid the NFL of criminals how about we start with the ones who have committed crimes against people? Which amendment to the constitution was it that gave animals any rights?

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by I.A.S.K.

It is really f***ing lame that if Vick were not black his sentence would have been entirely different. Also, OJ was never convicted or proven guilty. Guess that means you can be guilty and not be proven such.



Kill a person, cool. Drive drunk, OK. Carry guns, knives, and other weapons, fine. Rape a woman, no problem! Fight dogs...you're fired! Gotta love those PETA losers. Seriously, if we're going to rid the NFL of criminals how about we start with the ones who have committed crimes against people? Which amendment to the constitution was it that gave animals any rights?

Umm, it's time for the shock therapy, because you sound CRAZY. Never once did I say that those other things were okay. In fact, I think the NFL is full of thugs and lowlives; Vick is just part of the collection. It doesn't matter, though, since he probably won't last long in the NFL.

Like I said, I'm not one of those people who values the lives of animals over the lives of humans. Vick, however, continued to do this for years at a time--knowing fully that it was illegal and what kind of problems he'd get into. Believe it or not, intent is factored into sentencing. Did Stallworth intend to kill an innocent person? No, but he did, which is why he was punished. Not only did Vick consent to this behavior occurring on his property, he was aware of it for years. If that's not intent, I don't know what is.

Please don't play the race card. His being black did not force him to do the stupid things he did. Playing the race card is sooo old.

[PeppyGPhiB]

Originally Posted by I.A.S.K.

OJ was never convicted or proven guilty. Guess that means you can be guilty and not be proven such.

Yes he was.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

Yes he was.

Not initially. His conviction was for another crime.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by aggieAXO

I really liked Philly when I visited last year but now I have just lost respect for that city.

Let's not forget that it wasn't the city of Philadelphia that made the decision to sign Vick. It was the Philadelphia Eages, which is a privately owned organization. I bet there are people in Philly as grossed out by this as you are. I know I certainly don't want to be implicated in the Giants' decisions!

[I.A.S.K.]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

Umm, it's time for the shock therapy, because you sound CRAZY. Never once did I say that those other things were okay. In fact, I think the NFL is full of thugs and lowlives; Vick is just part of the collection. It doesn't matter, though, since he probably won't last long in the NFL.

Like I said, I'm not one of those people who values the lives of animals over the lives of humans. Vick, however, continued to do this for years at a time--knowing fully that it was illegal and what kind of problems he'd get into.

Please don't play the race card. His being black did not force him to do the stupid things he did. Playing the race card is sooo old.

Last time I checked this was a message board not a card game so there is no race card to be played. My opinion remains that if Michael Vick were white his sentence would have been less stern. His being black had nothing to do with the crime. His being stupid had that covered. His being black had to do with the sentencing of the crime. If Vick were a white guy he'd been percieved a different way by the public and by the judge. Vick had the image of a young, hip-hop influenced thug. Thats how he was portrayed. It is very hard to imagine a white player in Vick's situation being portrayed that way. That image is what many judges and people cannot relate to. That image is a reason why many people still feel Vick is not changed and is not remorseful though many who know/knew him say he is changed and he has expressed remorse. If you're viewed as a thug you will recieve a harsher sentence because it is deemed necessary.

I never said YOU said them. I never said anyone said them. That is an expression of what the sentiment seems to be about Vick. It is also called *gasp* sarcasm! If you do not value the lives of dogs over the lives of men then regardless of how long Vick was doing this once he served his time there would be no need to punish him further.
Honestly from the comments that Vick made he was contributing to an illegal gambling ring. To him that was the illegal part. The thought didnt cross his mind that the dogs and their treatment would be a problem. There are very many people who arent even aware of the laws that cover animal cruelty. Until someone can find me that part of the Constitution that gives animals rights and tell me what rights they have then I cannot be upset at someone who has served his debt to society and I will not try to prevent him from moving on with his life.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

I'm really sick and tired of people making this comparison, because it's effing lame. Stallworth was determined to have been negligent and reckless in a one-time incident. He did not have a history of DUI, bad driving, or other reckless behavior. Vick, on the other hand, continued this "operation" for over two years. He didn't just run a dog-fighting ring for a month or two. NO. His "operation" went above and beyond simple dog-fighting. He killed animals who didn't "win," he set up rape racks to allow other dogs to violate each other when it wasn't appropriate, he didn't take care of the animals he had in his ownership.

OK - let's make it "Leonard Little" instead. Needless to say, I think this line of reasoning is horrifically flawed.

Also, leaning on "intent" is absolutely irrelevant to the discussion - Stallworth's sentence was unreal light, and is a byproduct of shitty Florida laws mixed with celebrity/wealth. Most states have "instantaneous premeditation" for 1st-degree murder. "Intent" is a VERY loaded word when you kill another person.

I lack the moral compass or authority to determine whether killing a person after repeatedly putting yourself and others at danger via a preventable act (drunken driving) is worse than a pattern of barbarism against animals, but there is certainly some argument that Vick is being maligned MUCH more than those who have killed people or performed acts of barbarism against humans.

[KSigkid]

Wow...figured this would be pretty heated. My thoughts:

I don't have a problem with the Eagles signing Vick. He paid his debt to society, now he's entitled to move on with the rest of his life. He should be able to return to his workplace, so to speak, if someone is willing to hire him.

I do think that what he did was pretty horrible, and I have no problem with the length of his prison sentence. I think the sentence was reasonable, if on the high end of reasonable. I think his celebrity played into that (i.e. sending a message to the dog fighting community through a high profile participant).

He committed a felony, was convicted of it, and served his time. As far as I'm concerned, he should be able to move on with the rest of his life, and hopefully be a productive citizen going forward.

And, for what it's worth, I think the Stallworth sentence was one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen. He and Leonard Little can go have a couple of drinks and laugh about how they avoided serious criminal consequences.

ETA: For what it's worth, I'd be far more upset if my team signed Stallworth (or Leonard Little, for that matter). Then again, since I was nearly killed by a drunk driver, I have fairly strong feelings on the issue.

[aggieAXO]

You guys are right, I owe an apology to those that live in Philly. It wasn't your decision. Sorry . I do really like your city though I am not sure how I would be able to deal with the winters.

ETA, I am passionate about many things but I became a veterinarian b/c I am most passionate about animals.

[33girl]

OK, just want to say....

comparisons to rape, STD spreading, things of that nature are apples and oranges. At some point the women who were raped/befouled by VD consented to spend some time with the dude in question. These dogs did NOT have a choice to be part of a dog fighting ring. The only thing I would compare it to with humans would be a child prostitution ring.

Michael Vick did NOT need to get involved in this trash with these horrible people because he had no other way to make money - last I checked he had a rather nice income. If he's being "too" maligned, it's because he never needed to be involved in this to begin with and because he just let it go on and on, in extremely horrible ways. He wasn't a "silent partner" at all.

And I didn't say I would be protesting, I said animal rights groups would. I personally think voting with your wallet is more effective. But that doesn't change the fact that the whole city is going to suffer for the Eagles' extremely piss poor decision.

[Senusret I]

I spoke about this a little bit today on my facebook status.....

First of all, I am not one of those animal-spooning PETA people.

Nor am I one of those race people.

I AM one of those people who is irritated by hero-worship. If the issue is the BLACK MAN BEING HELD DOWN or BACK or wherever it is white folks are supposed to be putting me, then I can probably count thirty actually regular black dudes who have been victims of institutional racism or injustice in some way worse than Michael Vick.

In fact, how about we start with my entire graduating high school class for having the misfortune of being from a DC Public School?

It annoys me that Vick is some black folks latest cause when there's so much more to be done for ACTUAL black people living right next to me.

Fuck Michael Vick. I don't care what happens to him. I DO care what happens to the 14 year old who saw me at McDonald's this morning and said "Mr. Darden!" and filled me in on his life since the last time I saw him. I was his teacher. He remembered my name. I made an impact on him in some way. He's not out there killing dogs. Good for him. Good for me.

Where's his award? Where's mine? We don't get one -- we DO get to NOT be in the news for being fuck ups though! And that's good enough for me.

[knight_shadow]

^^^

[I.A.S.K.]

Originally Posted by 33girl

OK, just want to say....

comparisons to rape, STD spreading, things of that nature are apples and oranges. At some point the women who were raped/befouled by VD consented to spend some time with the dude in question. These dogs did NOT have a choice to be part of a dog fighting ring. The only thing I would compare it to with humans would be a child prostitution ring.

Michael Vick did NOT need to get involved in this trash with these horrible people because he had no other way to make money - last I checked he had a rather nice income. If he's being "too" maligned, it's because he never needed to be involved in this to begin with and because he just let it go on and on, in extremely horrible ways. He wasn't a "silent partner" at all.

And I didn't say I would be protesting, I said animal rights groups would. I personally think voting with your wallet is more effective. But that doesn't change the fact that the whole city is going to suffer for the Eagles' extremely piss poor decision.

Just read the bolded one more time and see if it still makes sense. Because women may have come in to contact with or even know their attacker they're more responsible for the crimes committed against them than dogs that have no choice about who they spend time around? Well if thats the case blame the dogs. They could've run away. They knew their attackers. They ate food the attackers fed them. Or do the dogs have battered pet syndrome?

[33girl]

Originally Posted by I.A.S.K.

Just read the bolded one more time and see if it still makes sense. Because women may have come in to contact with or even know their attacker they're more responsible for the crimes committed against them than dogs that have no choice about who they spend time around? Well if thats the case blame the dogs. They could've run away. They knew their attackers. They ate food the attackers fed them. Or do the dogs have battered pet syndrome?

No, dipshit, that is not what I said.

I said at some point, women chose to be in the company of their attacker - unless they were mugged on the street/raped at gunpoint. None of which we are talking about here. I did not say they chose to be raped or get AIDS or whatever or were "asking for it" or are responsible.

These animals never, ever chose to be in the company of Michael Vick or any of his equally sick asshole friends. This isn't Animal Farm where the animals can revolt, although it would have been the bomb diggity if it were.

Why do people freak out more over the rape of a baby than the rape of a grown woman? I mean, I'm sure that baby will forget all about it by the time it grows up. Babies don't know any better. (This is called SARCASM by the way.)