government mandated slavery

[AGDee]

I've been supportive of something like this since I first learned of Israel's program. In that type of system, everybody does 2 years of something, whether military or community service. If someone is not eligible for the military due to health reasons, they can do community service. The biggest problem is funding it, as is the case with everything that sounds like a good idea. I think our society is the most selfish that it's ever been. In the words of JFK.. "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."

Most of the schools around here require community service hours to graduate. I don't see these types of programs taking away jobs from anybody.

I am floored by the number of people who keep saying "Oh great, now my taxes are going to be raised." None of the people I've heard say that make anywhere near $250K a year. As my ex-husband was grumbling, I looked at him and said "If you're making over $250K, then you're not paying me enough child support" and he got this look on his face and said "Yeah, I guess I'll worry about when I make that much, which is never.." LOL

[Scandia]

Not all schools require community service to graduate.

Mine encouraged it to the point that the principal thought it was more important than academics- but did not require it. It was only required to belong in NHS. Everyone knew that was the real reason why I did it.

I did not read about this till today. But I am seething. Not only I do not like being told what to do- but this would be a logistical nightmare. One of the beautiful parts of volunteer work is the CHOICE to do it. Regardless of the intent behind it- which is only up to the supreme being to judge- one needs to make the decision on your own free will. Not be imposed by the government. Forced labor is ILLEGAL.

Not to mention this would be a logistical nightmare. For the schools and for the students as well. Unless it were extremely well organized with a person in charge of this at every school, it would be very difficult to do.

Obama has not even been inaugurated- and he already did something for me to dislike him.

Don't blame me, I voted for McCain!

[KSUViolet06]

The title of this thread is quite misleading.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by AGDee

I've been supportive of something like this since I first learned of Israel's program. In that type of system, everybody does 2 years of something, whether military or community service. If someone is not eligible for the military due to health reasons, they can do community service. The biggest problem is funding it, as is the case with everything that sounds like a good idea. I think our society is the most selfish that it's ever been. In the words of JFK.. "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."

Most of the schools around here require community service hours to graduate. I don't see these types of programs taking away jobs from anybody.

I am floored by the number of people who keep saying "Oh great, now my taxes are going to be raised." None of the people I've heard say that make anywhere near $250K a year. As my ex-husband was grumbling, I looked at him and said "If you're making over $250K, then you're not paying me enough child support" and he got this look on his face and said "Yeah, I guess I'll worry about when I make that much, which is never.." LOL

I'm just guessing, but I think you mean high schools requiring community service and I suspect that most of it gets done with organizations that have always done community service, like the Boy Scouts, Girls Scouts, Beta Club, church groups, etc. It'd be interesting to know how many more kids do it than did before the schools required it and how well the community is served.

And I also suspect that what is currently required is a relatively small number of hours done by a relatively small numbers of schools, compared to the number of schools you would have involved if you had a universal program. It could be incredible in terms of the benefits to society or could be a huge resource suck, depending on the requirements for administration and documentation of the program.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with community service. There could in practice be a lot wrong in how this gets done. Since the language has now shifted to merely setting a goal of the relatively small number of hours for a year, I'm not thinking it's going to amount to much but maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.

(The job loss thing was just in response to the dish washing example. I honestly expect the increase in community service to be so small scale that it wouldn't really matter in the labor force. What I see with kids at my high school is that they do things they'd do anyway, but they just track the hours.)

I'm not sure that you can compare the Israeli program to what you could expect to see in the US, for a lot of reasons.

[fantASTic]

I think the big problem here is that we in the US have traditionally reserved community service for two reasons, these being:

1). Someone has a genuine desire to help others, or

2). Someone gets in trouble with the law and receives community service as a PUNISHMENT.

When I think of someone being mandated to do community service as a requirement of anything that is mandatory, such as high school, then it comes off as a punishment. College is different because people don't have to go to college - it is a privilege. However, since children are forced to be in high school until 16, I don't like rules and requirements that force them to do more. If it was just a goal, no big deal...but if there are punishments for not doing it, then that needs to be looked at.

A lot of people have been saying stuff like, "It's community service! That is great for the country so why shouldn't this be okay? You should want to help the community!" That sounds the same to me as saying, "Why don't you like the Patriot Act? Do you have something to hide?" It doesn't matter whether you do or don't, or whether service is beneficial or not. It comes down to personal freedoms.

I voted for Obama.

[AGDee]

For high school students, all you would really need a log sheet that they turn in to their counselor with their graduation portfolio. As they do service, they get someone to sign off. It doesn't have to be a huge deal. It could be anything from shoveling snow for an elderly neighbor, volunteering at a local pet shelter, helping at the church when it's their Christnet week, etc. And yes, my kids, through Scouts, do far more than 40 or 50 hours of service a year. I have demonstrated an importance for community service to them and they are always eager to do service. I think they get a lot of self esteem from it in addition to learning more about people less fortunate than they are. There are also community service clubs in their high school. I believe the one my daughter joined is called Interact. I was a candy striper through high school because, at the time, I thought I wanted to be a doctor and thought it would be good for med school apps. While volunteering in the PT department, I got exposed to Occupational Therapy and discovered that OT was a great combination of all the things I wanted to do at some point (teaching, medical field and psychiatry/psychology). The things one learns about themselves while helping others are invaluable.

The type of program Israel has is what I would like to see here, but as I said, the funding would be impossible. There is an Americorps (City Year Detroit) that works out of my building and I think what they do is great. They don't work for free, although the stipend they get doesn't come close to military pay either. I see a lot of college students wandering aimlessly through their first two years of college trying to figure out what to major in, etc. who end up taking 6 years to graduate because they change their major so many times. Having a couple years to do some service and find out more about who you really are and where your true interests and skills lie wouldn't be a bad thing for those kids either.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by AGDee

For high school students, all you would really need a log sheet that they turn in to their counselor with their graduation portfolio. As they do service, they get someone to sign off. It doesn't have to be a huge deal. It could be anything from shoveling snow for an elderly neighbor, volunteering at a local pet shelter, helping at the church when it's their Christnet week, etc. And yes, my kids, through Scouts, do far more than 40 or 50 hours of service a year. I have demonstrated an importance for community service to them and they are always eager to do service. I think they get a lot of self esteem from it in addition to learning more about people less fortunate than they are. There are also community service clubs in their high school. I believe the one my daughter joined is called Interact. I was a candy striper through high school because, at the time, I thought I wanted to be a doctor and thought it would be good for med school apps. While volunteering in the PT department, I got exposed to Occupational Therapy and discovered that OT was a great combination of all the things I wanted to do at some point (teaching, medical field and psychiatry/psychology). The things one learns about themselves while helping others are invaluable.

The type of program Israel has is what I would like to see here, but as I said, the funding would be impossible. There is an Americorps (City Year Detroit) that works out of my building and I think what they do is great. They don't work for free, although the stipend they get doesn't come close to military pay either. I see a lot of college students wandering aimlessly through their first two years of college trying to figure out what to major in, etc. who end up taking 6 years to graduate because they change their major so many times. Having a couple years to do some service and find out more about who you really are and where your true interests and skills lie wouldn't be a bad thing for those kids either.

If all the high school kids need is to turn in a log sheet, I don't think you will see any appreciable benefit to the community. The kids will track more hours, but I don't hold out much hope that they will actually do more hours.

Sure, I think every high school kid could probably find ways to do 50 authentic hours of service a year. A big group though won't even attempt it, if it isn't mandatory. And another appreciable group will just do a better job tracking every thing they could possible "count," without actually making much of sincere effort to serve. So you're left with the kids who have already been doing service in their families, Scouts, clubs, etc.

A big optional public service initiative probably not going to hurt anything. And it might actually make kids more aware of opportunities that they do have, but I think it can either be a "goal" with little reward or consequence to the kid or to society or it can be a large scale program that's either required or rewarded in a way that makes it more likely that people will participate but will also drive up the cost of the program. Neither one is something I feel like we need federal intervention to do.

As you noted, we've got programs right now that would meet some of the needs and benefits if kids would elect to participate.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by DGTess

What makes this a particularly bad idea is that America is a land of liberty. That means free choice, and yes, accepting the consequences of that choice. Which means leaving open the choice NOT to participate. Most may agree that morally, serving is the "right" thing to do, but choice is fundamental part of liberty.

And accepting the consquences could be a bureaucratic nightmare in itself. You can't graduate if you don't contribute 50/100 hours? To what? You're talking about making government bigger to "enforce" volunteerism.

And I can envision the courts becoming involved over disputes between what is and what isn't community service .....

A good idea, in theory only.

Look, I think President Obama's plan is probably to shore up Americorps and/or CityYear programs for middle/high schools students. If kids want $4000 to go toward a collegiate education, they can do some odd hours of community service. If that means wearing orange vests and picking up trash at the park/street, then, that's what it means.

If that means, "candy striping"/Habitat for Humanity/clerical filing work, etc. young people really need "directions" of that of stewardship and service...

If they don't want the money or reduction in student loan debt, they don't have to give of their time during college. The Feds currently do this for other programs. If you take the money, you must do the duty. That's the incentive. The government cannot have an unengaged collecting resources citizenry. It's unfair to those citizens who are engaged in some form.

For:

“I would define liberty to be a power to do as we would be done by. The definition of liberty to be the power of doing whatever the law permits, meaning the civil laws, does not seem satisfactory.”

"If we do not lay out ourselves in the service of mankind whom should we serve?"

~President John Adams, 2nd President of the US.

[epchick]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

If all the high school kids need is to turn in a log sheet, I don't think you will see any appreciable benefit to the community. The kids will track more hours, but I don't hold out much hope that they will actually do more hours.

How do you figure that? When I was in high school, the only groups that did community service were the National Honor Societies (NHS, Spanish NHS, French NHS, etc). In all those groups we had log sheets, where you wrote down what you did, the hours you were there, and then you got the person in charge of the community service to sign off (plus their telephone number to be reached at).

I remember thinking that 50-100 hours of community service was a lot for a whole year until I realized what was considered "community service." I was in a dance group at the time (ballet folklorico) and any performance we had counted as community service. We used to have at least 3-5 performances a month. So in the 9 month span, I racked up anywhere between 20 to 50 hours just in dancing. Not to mention we got hours for making holiday/birthday baskets for custodians, or volunteering as candy strippers.

I remember I always had fun volunteering at an elementary school's Halloween carnival. Shoot playing games w/ kids, eating candy, dressing up, scaring kids, etc was the best way to spend 5 hours.

I do think that it will be hard to get people to do the community service, especially in areas (like mine) where none are required. But to say that it's "forced labor" or whatever is a little far fetched.

ETA: i think that there are many good things in mandating community service, but at the same time I think people will lose the "thrill" of voluntarily volunteering. People will see community service as just something they HAVE to do instead of something they WANT to do. I've always found it impressive when someone in MS/HS says they volunteer at so-and-so, I wouldn't feel the same way if it was mandated.

[Nanners52674]

Originally Posted by fantASTic

When I think of someone being mandated to do community service as a requirement of anything that is mandatory, such as high school, then it comes off as a punishment. College is different because people don't have to go to college - it is a privilege. However, since children are forced to be in high school until 16, I don't like rules and requirements that force them to do more. If it was just a goal, no big deal...but if there are punishments for not doing it, then that needs to be looked at.

Um high school is all about requirements you need certain grades to pass a class and move up and graduate, its not forced you can choose not to go to class or do your homework or take the tests and as a result not graduate. You would also have that option with community service. I can't understand why the idea of having young adults do community service is a bad thing???

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by epchick

How do you figure that? When I was in high school, the only groups that did community service were the National Honor Societies (NHS, Spanish NHS, French NHS, etc). In all those groups we had log sheets, where you wrote down what you did, the hours you were there, and then you got the person in charge of the community service to sign off (plus their telephone number to be reached at).

I remember thinking that 50-100 hours of community service was a lot for a whole year until I realized what was considered "community service." I was in a dance group at the time (ballet folklorico) and any performance we had counted as community service. We used to have at least 3-5 performances a month. So in the 9 month span, I racked up anywhere between 20 to 50 hours just in dancing. Not to mention we got hours for making holiday/birthday baskets for custodians, or volunteering as candy strippers.

I remember I always had fun volunteering at an elementary school's Halloween carnival. Shoot playing games w/ kids, eating candy, dressing up, scaring kids, etc was the best way to spend 5 hours.

I do think that it will be hard to get people to do the community service, especially in areas (like mine) where none are required. But to say that it's "forced labor" or whatever is a little far fetched.

ETA: i think that there are many good things in mandating community service, but at the same time I think people will lose the "thrill" of voluntarily volunteering. People will see community service as just something they HAVE to do instead of something they WANT to do. I've always found it impressive when someone in MS/HS says they volunteer at so-and-so, I wouldn't feel the same way if it was mandated.

I'm not worried about the forced labor aspect particularly. I think it would nearly impossible to go that route. But as long as we were sure there was a compelling reason for the federal government to do it and could figure out a way to accomplish it, I don't know that it would be terrible. I've got little problem with the idea of a wartime draft. If there were a comparable need domestically, I guess compelling service is as valid. But I don't think there current is a comparable domestic need and I don't see a compelling reason to try to implement a big federal community service program. And fortunately, it doesn't look like Obama does either.

My thinking about the log sheets is tied into what you said about how much stuff counted. Too many things that kids already do, IMO, which may or may not really serve anyone but their immediate circle, "count" even though the benefit to the community is relatively slight.

And this may also shock those among us who are trusting, but some kids make stuff up. If all you have to do is turn in the log, I think some kids are going to embellish or exaggerate what they've really done. You were required to turn in phone numbers, but unless someone actually take the time to verify, what does it really matter?

I know kids in my community who count a one day service project as their church confirmation project, their Beta Club hours, and document it apply to NHS, so I'm a little unimpressed with logging hours for Obama too.

[fantASTic]

Originally Posted by Nanners52674

Um high school is all about requirements you need certain grades to pass a class and move up and graduate, its not forced you can choose not to go to class or do your homework or take the tests and as a result not graduate. You would also have that option with community service. I can't understand why the idea of having young adults do community service is a bad thing???

Again, comparison with the Patriot Act: You have the option to not do bad things, so why would you possibly be upset that someone is spying on your telephone conversations and seeing what you check out at the library? That can't possibly be a bad thing if you are doing the right things!

The point here is that there is a difference between getting a diploma which states that you have a certain level of knowledge and being forced to do community service. That has nothing to do with book learning, which is what school is for. Also, I agree with people who say that it takes away from the POINT of VOLUNteering. As in, voluntary.

Haha...we should rename it compulsateering!

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

I think one could have a rational problem with any new federal program without a clearly defined purpose. Your point about washing dishes at the country club kind of points out how useless this could turn out to be. It might actually be destructive, displacing lower wage employees.

I don't have a problem with tying currently existing federal assistance for higher education to community service in areas of specific need. As far as middle school and high school, if a local board wanted to set it up, okay. Or if it's offered as sort of the old Presidential Physical Fitness Awards program in the area of community service, it's hard to see it doing any real harm or having any really big costs.

But it's not irrational to question exactly what and how.

If this is what were happening, I wouldn't have posted.

Instead, the OP comparing this to "slavery" (in any form) shows an irrational belief in what is really being proposed - even connecting this to the draft is laughable. You really think the Democrats are the ones looking to institute a draft? Come on. It's fear-mongering and, to a certain extent, race-baiting.

I'm as skeptical as any, in the traditional mold of the Skeptics - questioning is fine, this is not. To put it another way, I'm not enslaved by the "limited" selection at a grocery store if I'm hungry, and to claim otherwise is disingenuous at best.

[DGTess]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

Look, I think President Obama's plan is probably to shore up Americorps and/or CityYear programs for middle/high schools students. If kids want $4000 to go toward a collegiate education, they can do some odd hours of community service. If that means wearing orange vests and picking up trash at the park/street, then, that's what it means.

If that means, "candy striping"/Habitat for Humanity/clerical filing work, etc. young people really need "directions" of that of stewardship and service...

If they don't want the money or reduction in student loan debt, they don't have to give of their time during college. The Feds currently do this for other programs. If you take the money, you must do the duty. That's the incentive. The government cannot have an unengaged collecting resources citizenry. It's unfair to those citizens who are engaged in some form.

For:

“I would define liberty to be a power to do as we would be done by. The definition of liberty to be the power of doing whatever the law permits, meaning the civil laws, does not seem satisfactory.”

"If we do not lay out ourselves in the service of mankind whom should we serve?"

~President John Adams, 2nd President of the US.

It's President-Elect.

I can't wait until someone's community service involves faith-based anti-choice counseling. Or Eddie Eagle classes. Or community organizing for a cause against one of his causes.

Just sayin'

[epchick]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

And this may also shock those among us who are trusting, but some kids make stuff up. If all you have to do is turn in the log, I think some kids are going to embellish or exaggerate what they've really done. You were required to turn in phone numbers, but unless someone actually take the time to verify, what does it really matter?

I know kids in my community who count a one day service project as their church confirmation project, their Beta Club hours, and document it apply to NHS, so I'm a little unimpressed with logging hours for Obama too.

Ahaha soo true! some of my friends would do that. They'd go do community service for an hour or two, have the person sign the log sheet, and then later go back and change the hours from "one" to "seven" or something like that.