Does a shorter associate program lead to more drop-outs?

[DudeFromAcacia]

^^^ I believe it's made clear to all the pledges what score they must get in order to be initiated, something along that line. It's all in the trick of rite of passage and initiation.

I actually shouldn't be talking too much about these kind of stuff, although it's a standard in many Greek houses.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by melindawarren

Aside from the bold portion, I see no reason why chapters shouldn't expect everyone to do this. How else do you get to know people?

Originally Posted by 33girl

Because of the bold portion - this is why interviews were banned by NPC groups. Too many people went overboard with what you should have to do to "earn" the interview or signature. We NEVER used them in that way, even something mild like what ree-xi mentions makes me uncomfortable.

Of course, it would have been nice if the people abusing them would have been the only ones punished with their elimination and everyone else could have kept what was for many people their favorite part of pledging...but that would make too much sense.

I was originally going to answer, but 33girl did it for me. I see both sides and was one of those who had to do the interviews thing. It wasn't abused in my chapter when I was a pledge, but I saw it go bad in my chapter and in other chapters on my campus. It would have been nice if the ones who abused it were the only ones punished, but sometimes it became a whole chapter culture to abuse it, so nobody was going to squeal because they were all doing it. The abuse became too wide spread and the insurance companies said "no more". The vast majority of our risk management policies are dicated by what the insurance companies say.

Originally Posted by 33girl

We had a program called KROP - Keep Rushing Our Pledges (I guess now it would be Keep Recruiting Our Pearls) that addressed these concerns.

We used the KROP idea in Alpha Gam also.

We also have a test. Back in my day, it was an oral exam, in front of the whole chapter and was pretty intimidating, honestly. Now it is written with a certain required score to pass and it can be taken as many times as needed. I don't see a test as hazing under these conditions: 1) It's a test that is pushed out by the inter/national organization, not one that is made up by the chapter, 2) it is documented as part of the inter/national program, 3) consequences of not passing the test are known and sanctioned by the inter/national program (not being Initiated versus doing a shot, etc.), 4) new members get multiple opportunities to pass the test, 5) new members know exactly when their test will be and 6) the test is taken in a private way (paper/pencil or online, not in a line-up).

We are also one of the NPCs that has moved toward Member Development rather than new member education. We have an Alpha Experience (for new members), Gamma Experience (2nd and 3rd year) and Delta Experience (senior year). It refocuses programming on our Purpose and educating members throughout their collegiate experience. Some aspects of Delta can include getting to know the alumnae chapters/clubs but it also focuses on their development level in college. It is a more values based, personal development based program that actually reduces overall programming for the members but targeting it toward living our Purpose.

I personally didn't see a big difference in retention when we shortened our new member period (early 90s). I do see big differences when the economy is rough. The other big factor I've seen make a difference is the study abroad phenomena. I see a much higher drop out rate for schools where almost everybody goes away for a term. We all know that one new member class can really change a chapter dynamic and I think when women get back from a semester abroad they are 1) more financially strained and 2) feel out of the loop of chapter happenings. Combine that with the "what's in it for me" trends of the millennials and you see some member loss.

The trend that concerns me more is the lack of alumnae volunteers and international level volunteers. I hope that our Delta program helps turn that around but in general, I'm not seeing younger members joining alumnae groups or volunteering like they used to. I think several trends have led to this ... it used to be THE way to stay in touch with sisters or hear chapter news but with social media, we can know everything that's going on and stay in touch without ever actually talking to anybody from the chapter. We, as women, are busier than we ever have been before. More are going to grad school, more are working mothers with overscheduled kids so it is harder to find time to dedicate to this kind of volunteer work. We are also a more mobile society so we aren't in the area where we went to school. We used to tend to volunteer because we felt a connection to our local chapter. We don't feel those same connections to other chapters and might be hesitant to volunteer where we don't know anybody.

[aephi alum]

Originally Posted by 33girl

We had a program called KROP - Keep Rushing Our Pledges (I guess now it would be Keep Recruiting Our Pearls) that addressed these concerns.

Originally Posted by AGDee

We used the KROP idea in Alpha Gam also.

Same here. When I joined AEPhi, AEPhi was just switching over from the old terminology to the new, and I remember the TEC who was placed with my colony saying, "What are we going to call it now that we're switching from 'pledge' to 'new member'? KRONM?" A lot of the onus was placed on the sisters, to make sure NMs got to meet different people in the chapter - rather than the NMs having to get hold of a chapter roster and saying, "OK, I had lunch with Sally yesterday, check; I had coffee with Anne this afternoon, check; I really need to track down Leah, I've called her three times already..."

As for the test, I don't recall if I mentioned this upthread, but we do have a written test that all NMs must pass before initiation. In my day, the entire NM class took the test at a set date and time. If you passed (scored 100%), great. If you failed, you could retake the test as many times as necessary until you passed. I can think of a few instances where NMs had to retake the test, but I can't think of an instance where a NM hadn't passed it before initiation.

[itb2a]

In fraternities, shorter initiation periods in themselves are not the sole problem. There are other factors that influence this. I'm not going to address sororities in this post; their pledge selection is altogether different.

The colleges/Greek Life offices tend to have more sway over greek eligibility. Because more colleges are funding house expansion/building, they feel that they have standing to influence pledgings as well; after all, why not make sure that the house can repay the college's funding?

Another aspect is how the current college age kids interact. Now, interaction is considered to be a text message, a tweet, or a facebook update. It's the instant gratification that's important. And if that is the focus, turnover will just happen.

The last item is that the existing members seem to lack the skills of how to recruit a prospect. Selection is more important than before; if you
screw up a selection, it may be after initiation that it is found that there are issues or problems, hence turnover. The shorter period is not an issue as long as the chapter and the pledge can still discern whether compatibility exists. Most rush chairmen do not want to take the harder path of 'hey, this guy has qualities we like and we can help develop', althought this is typically how a business would recruit a new employee. After all, if the chapter is not helping it's members, what's the attraction to staying a member? And that's where the chapters seem to forget the advise of an alumni group or alumni advisor; because the rush chairmen do not perceive a benefit in asking alumni for help in recruiting, and because of that the rush chairmen tend to lose legacies.

Just my opinion.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by itb2a

The colleges/Greek Life offices tend to have more sway over greek eligibility. Because more colleges are funding house expansion/building, they feel that they have standing to influence pledgings as well; after all, why not make sure that the house can repay the college's funding?

Are you blaming deferred rush for this? Because I don't think deferred rush has a thing to do with it (guys or girls). Same goes for a GPA. Most schools have a minimum GPA for rushing/pledging that is FAR LESS than the national offices of the GLOs.

Or are you intimating that GL offices and administrators actually tell fraternities who to pledge? If that's the case, I'd like to see some concrete information.

[HQWest]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Are you blaming deferred rush for this? Because I don't think deferred rush has a thing to do with it (guys or girls). Same goes for a GPA. Most schools have a minimum GPA for rushing/pledging that is FAR LESS than the national offices of the GLOs.

Or are you intimating that GL offices and administrators actually tell fraternities who to pledge? If that's the case, I'd like to see some concrete information.

I think what they are trying to say is that GL offices are being conditioned to think more (i.e. more pledging) or bigger is better. This is leading to situations where they are encouraging expansion because quota is up even if one or two chapters are struggling to stay afloat. Another example would be bringing on a new chapter so the university doesn't have empty dorm space or an empty lodge.

Deferred recruitment (or semi-deferred recruitment like Cal) can be good - but ONLY if you have trouble convincing PNMs to try recruitment and explore Greek Life. It does not make you any less likely to have grade risks. It does not limit social behavior risks. (Anyone can be on their best behavior for one semester.) It does increase "tent talk", name calling, dirty rushing, and inappropriate bid promising.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by HQWest

I think what they are trying to say is that GL offices are being conditioned to think more (i.e. more pledging) or bigger is better. This is leading to situations where they are encouraging expansion because quota is up even if one or two chapters are struggling to stay afloat. Another example would be bringing on a new chapter so the university doesn't have empty dorm space or an empty lodge.

Expansion has nothing to do with who you (an individual GLO you) choose to pledge, which is what itb seemed to be talking about. And I've NEVER heard of a GL office who gave a shit whether an individual group's numbers were up or down - that is not their province. Ditto the empty dorm space - I've never heard of such a thing. More likely, the school eliminates it as Greek housing and turns it over to another student group or just opens it up to the general student population. I'll say again, concrete evidence of these things you cite please (i.e. name of school and GLO).

Originally Posted by HQWest

Deferred recruitment (or semi-deferred recruitment like Cal) can be good - but ONLY if you have trouble convincing PNMs to try recruitment and explore Greek Life. It does not make you any less likely to have grade risks. It does not limit social behavior risks. (Anyone can be on their best behavior for one semester.) It does increase "tent talk", name calling, dirty rushing, and inappropriate bid promising.

It also increases the amount of members who know EXACTLY what they're getting into (i.e. they know the group they're choosing is the "fat chapter" and they don't care because they've seen the "popular chapter" being bitches for a semester) - and most likely decreases dropouts during pledging or disaffiliation after initiation. And as has been pointed out on GC MANY MANY times, lots of the most competitive rushes - which take place before students have even had one college class - are already full of tent talk, name calling, dirty rushing and inappropriate bid promising.

Anyone who still views pre-freshman rush as a panacea making all things perfectly even is beyond having their head in the sand. It never was, and with the internet, it's even worse now.

[HQWest]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Expansion has nothing to do with who you (an individual GLO you) choose to pledge, which is what itb seemed to be talking about. And I've NEVER heard of a GL office who gave a shit whether an individual group's numbers were up or down - that is not their province. Ditto the empty dorm space - I've never heard of such a thing. More likely, the school eliminates it as Greek housing and turns it over to another student group or just opens it up to the general student population. I'll say again, concrete evidence of these things you cite please (i.e. name of school and GLO).



It also increases the amount of members who know EXACTLY what they're getting into (i.e. they know the group they're choosing is the "fat chapter" and they don't care because they've seen the "popular chapter" being bitches for a semester) - and most likely decreases dropouts during pledging or disaffiliation after initiation. And as has been pointed out on GC MANY MANY times, lots of the most competitive rushes - which take place before students have even had one college class - are already full of tent talk, name calling, dirty rushing and inappropriate bid promising.

Anyone who still views pre-freshman rush as a panacea making all things perfectly even is beyond having their head in the sand. It never was, and with the internet, it's even worse now.

Hey you asked - I answered.

If you want to spend your whole life thinking about nothing but recruitment then by all means come up with whatever crazy deferred recruitment you want or you can do recruitment within the first couple months of school starting (a la Ole Miss or Cal) get it over with and spend the rest of the school year on all of the reasons people wanted to be Greek in the first place.

[melindawarren]

Originally Posted by 33girl

It also increases the amount of members who know EXACTLY what they're getting into (i.e. they know the group they're choosing is the "fat chapter" and they don't care because they've seen the "popular chapter" being bitches for a semester) - and most likely decreases dropouts during pledging or disaffiliation after initiation. And as has been pointed out on GC MANY MANY times, lots of the most competitive rushes - which take place before students have even had one college class - are already full of tent talk, name calling, dirty rushing and inappropriate bid promising.

Anyone who still views pre-freshman rush as a panacea making all things perfectly even is beyond having their head in the sand. It never was, and with the internet, it's even worse now.

Or, honestly, first week of freshman year rush (which is what I had, and, at the time, seemed worse than pre-freshman rush-hey, pre-freshmen don't have homework! ).

I see nothing wrong with deferred recruitment? Maybe I'm the one missing something?

[pearlbubbles]

When I went through recruitment at my university, it was deferred. At the beginning of my Junior year, we switched back to to formal fall. I also saw a chapter close due to numbers during that time. My first two years in my chapter, quota was around thirty. Since my Junior year, it's been somewhere between seventy and eighty.

At the same time, we had maybe two to five people drop from each incoming pledge class my freshman and sophomore years. When we went back to formal fall, the number was a bit higher the first year, but dropped a bit the next year (and I can't comment on current statistics--though the economy certainly "helped" a bit when I was still there). In my experience, it seems like if a university has deferred recruitment, less women go through, but generally tend to stay in the organizations. With a formal fall style, the women you tend to lose would have been the ones that wouldn't have participated in a deferred recruitment to begin with. But, in my later years, I did see many members who probably wouldn't have gone through deferred recruitment really jump into the chapter and do great things. The same can be said for women who went through informal and COB. So in that case, I can't really say whether a fall recruitment or a spring recruitment is necessarily better, from a sorority standpoint, at least. (Fraternity recruitment, however, has its own idiosyncrasies.)

I definitely agree that it has a lot to do with the "instant gratification" nature of this generation. People go in expecting certain things and if they don't get them, it's not worth their time. (I've seen a lot of people doing this at my job recently too, which seems worse to me, but it's the same idea.) I do think that the years we focused on KROP ideas, even with the sophomores moving into the house, we had less dropping.

I think the important thing to keep members in the organizations is to continue specific programming with everyone. We used to have senior meetings my last year, and it was definitely nice to still feel like you had a voice and a role, even when you weren't necessarily as active in chapter proceedings.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by melindawarren

Or, honestly, first week of freshman year rush (which is what I had, and, at the time, seemed worse than pre-freshman rush-hey, pre-freshmen don't have homework! ).

I see nothing wrong with deferred recruitment? Maybe I'm the one missing something?

One of the big issues is that it doesn't work on campuses where you have to sign housing contracts in the fall. In Champaign, if you wanted a good apartment, you had to sign a lease by October or so for the following year.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by HQWest

Hey you asked - I answered.

Actually, I asked itb2a. He/she didn't seem to be talking about deferred rush.

Originally Posted by HQWest

If you want to spend your whole life thinking about nothing but recruitment then by all means come up with whatever crazy deferred recruitment you want or you can do recruitment within the first couple months of school starting (a la Ole Miss or Cal) get it over with and spend the rest of the school year on all of the reasons people wanted to be Greek in the first place.

You honestly think that's how it works? That sorority members at, say, SMU spend all of fall semester doing nothing but planning for rush, practicing for rush, talking about rush, thinking about rush?

The clue store is open till 2 every night. Please, for the love of all that's holy, pay a visit.

[KSUViolet06]

For what it's worth here, every school I work with in my volunteer role has deferred recruitment (second semester.)

All fall semester isn't spent prepping for FR. Prepping tends to start around the middle of Octoberish, and it definitely doesn't consume the entire sorority experience any more than having fall recruitment does. They still have and enjoy the same fall activities as every other school (Homecoming, date parties, etc.)

[VandalSquirrel]

Originally Posted by melindawarren

Or, honestly, first week of freshman year rush (which is what I had, and, at the time, seemed worse than pre-freshman rush-hey, pre-freshmen don't have homework! ).

I see nothing wrong with deferred recruitment? Maybe I'm the one missing something?

I think deferred recruitment is a dandy idea, as does 33girl, welcome to our vocal minority Whether later in a semester, spread out over a few weekends from one semester or quarter into the next, students coming back early after the New Year, it would vary for each campus. I see chapter housing facilities as driving a lot of this, and though they are great, they are also an albatross around the neck of many a chapter when there aren't enough members to pay the bills.

If there is an insistence on rush and joining before sitting in a class room, then don't allow new members to move in right away and live on campus (which many schools require). Meeting other people, having a space away from the chapter for reflection or to take a break, making friends who live in your hall (who could be potential future members) as well as having a support system and friends in the event one decides Greek Life isn't for them, some people outside the system including an RA who aren't members and may see warning signs or be able to report hazing, and so many more reasons play into my support of deferred recruitment.

Maybe if new members didn't move in right away and weren't isolated we could go back to longer new member periods to assuage the ideas of hazing since non-Greeks are living with freshmen. I also think that moving in right away may deepen or widen the schism between those who join and those who don't. I'm a huge supporter of waiting for semester or quarter grades to initiate and letting people get their bearings as I've seen plenty of kids fail first semester, get a waiver and be on academic and chapter probation, do it again, and leave school at the end of the first year.

If we're really life long organizations then waiting a semester is not going to hurt us in the long run. People say "we have to get them before they join other stuff!" but that makes me feel like we can't let our organizations stand on their own and let people get to know us and be sure they want to join for a life time by making educated and informed decisions. All groups have alumnae who have had no contact since graduation and maybe they were burnt out or it wasn't important to them, but if we're going to "keep rushing our pledges" we should keep rushing our alumnae as well.

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

One of the big issues is that it doesn't work on campuses where you have to sign housing contracts in the fall. In Champaign, if you wanted a good apartment, you had to sign a lease by October or so for the following year.

We have recruitment before classes start, and all freshman are required to live on campus so those who receive bids move in on Bid Day and the women who don't complete the process are guaranteed campus housing. Including Greek Chapter Facilities as housing for freshman men and women is not something many schools allow. Students who are interested in Greek Life are told to not sign housing contracts, which includes non-freshman students as moving in right away is expected and often required. Currently Delta Zeta is based in a Residence Hall, but when there is "overflow" women's chapters often have sisters live in a residence hall as a group and rotate in and out of the house, or upperclasswomen will move out of the facility to make space for freshmen/new members as finding off campus lodging in Moscow is not a problem.

Our nearby neighbors at Washington State University require freshmen to live on campus and for men have approved living facilities, women move into the dorms. Some are able to move into the chapters between semesters but many move in as sophomores. We're also alike as we have sleeping porches (cold dorms to some) so there is some flexibility for some chapters of how many people live in to pay the bills to comfortable space, to a rush hour train in Tokyo. Often women who join through informal recruitment will be expected and/or required to move into the house as soon as their lease or housing contract is up, and some chapters would financially help a woman who broke a lease or housing contract as the money will be recouped with her living in and being a full dues paying member. To be honest I think that practice is fading into the distance as chapters were robust enough that we opened for expansion and Delta Zeta became a colony.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by VandalSquirrel

Maybe if new members didn't move in right away and weren't isolated we could go back to longer new member periods to assuage the ideas of hazing since non-Greeks are living with freshmen. I also think that moving in right away may deepen or widen the schism between those who join and those who don't. I'm a huge supporter of waiting for semester or quarter grades to initiate and letting people get their bearings as I've seen plenty of kids fail first semester, get a waiver and be on academic and chapter probation, do it again, and leave school at the end of the first year.

Very few schools have NMs move into chapter housing right away. VERY FEW.