Sigma Alpha Epsilon Announces Historic Change for membership experience

[SAEalumnus]

Originally Posted by 33girl

SAEalumnus - semi touchy question (shock). Are the guys on the Supreme Council from chapters that do everything by HQ's book, chapters that might not follow all the rules explicitly but pull huge numbers, or a mix of both? I know we all have those "chapters that can do no wrong" and wondered if they were coming from that vantage point.

33: One of the Supreme Council member's chapter is currently closed due to hazing and alcohol violations. I'm not conversant about the others, but suspect SOM may be in a better position to answer that.

[badgeguy]

Originally Posted by SAEalumnus

The first "bid" offered by our Founders was given to Newton Nash Clements (Alabama 1858), who was initiated a week after accepting it. The True Gentleman Experience is a bit more aggressive at a mandatory maximum of four days, but is otherwise historically consistent. The establishment of new chapters was similarly expedient, though I wonder whether the Supreme Council will likewise radically shorten the chartering process (I suspect a double standard will prevail).

That's the point I was making.....the whole idea of a pledge process is historically a new concept that was non existent back in the 1800s. Most people entering societies where often times people one or two of the membership knew from their hometowns, or met in classes and really hit it off.

The idea of someone the chapter wants to be a fellow brother having to "prove" their worth or desire is definitely a more recent (post 1900s) development. Society changed, as did the stature of Greek Letter Societies in general.

Back in the 1800s according to numerous magazine articles, "hazing" if you will was primarily done between classes ( seniors to freshman) sort of thing and not really within specific members of fraternities.....

There was however the reports of "horseplay" at initiations to which alumni always frowned upon.....but that was different than a whole semester or quarter of hazing a pledge....(and seems to forget that these are people who one WANTS to be able to call BROTHER!)

[SAEalumnus]

Originally Posted by badgeguy

That's the point I was making.....the whole idea of a pledge process is historically a new concept that was non existent back in the 1800s. Most people entering societies where often times people one or two of the membership knew from their hometowns, or met in classes and really hit it off.

The idea of someone the chapter wants to be a fellow brother having to "prove" their worth or desire is definitely a more recent (post 1900s) development. Society changed, as did the stature of Greek Letter Societies in general.

Back in the 1800s according to numerous magazine articles, "hazing" if you will was primarily done between classes ( seniors to freshman) sort of thing and not really within specific members of fraternities.....

There was however the reports of "horseplay" at initiations to which alumni always frowned upon.....but that was different than a whole semester or quarter of hazing a pledge....(and seems to forget that these are people who one WANTS to be able to call BROTHER!)

Agreed. However, Clements was well known on campus already. The same could not be said for the typical first term freshman no one has met before. You'd almost have to run a background check on him before offering a bid.

[badgeguy]

Is this new program only about trying to end hazing? Or are there other reasons?

[SOM]

New York Times: After Students’ Hazing-Related Deaths, Fraternity Eliminates Tradition of Pledging
TEMPE, Ariz. — After a string of injuries and deaths at its fraternity houses, Sigma Alpha Epsilon, one of the largest fraternities in the country, said it would no longer permit “pledging” as part of its initiation process for undergraduates seeking to join the organization, and would instead offer new brothers full membership within days of inviting them to join.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/11/ed...temail0=y&_r=0

UConn Temporarily Suspends Sorority, Fraternity As It Probes Hazing Allegation http://www.courant.com/news/connecti...,7720546.story

UConn Fraternity, Sorority Suspended After Hazing Allegations http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/l...mobile=o&nms=y

UConn, state police investigate sorority sister's hazing allegations http://www.wfsb.com/story/24936604/u...ng-allegations
Story has links to the letters sent to both SAE and KKG by UConn's Office of Community Standards

[badgeguy]

Thanks for that. The sad fact is that none of this will stop merely becuase there is no more "pledging".

The fact that these events keep happening over and over again is a societal problem, that stems from the early years on up.... As I've said, hazing is a learned trait....

I've done a ton of historical research into fraternities dating back to the 1700s and there are always going to be problems with fraternities in the eyes of the general public, from those that aren't in the system who understand the greater good that can come from organizations like ours.

The real thing to do would not to eliminate pledging to end hazing, but start a nationwide community service where each fraternity and sorority goes into the high schools of our nation and teach them the negatives of what can happen if they continue with these learned traits, and also show them the good that can come from being in a fraternity or sorority.

Greek letter societies should be foremost about FRIENDSHIPS and the rest will work themselves out. Teaching our youth the true values of what Greek letter orgs stand for should be the priority...

[OneHeartOneWay]

a slight hijack from the hazing conversation, back to the logistical one:

(and obviously if this is treading too close to private member information, no worries): What is SAE's process for proposing bylaws changes at convention? Meaning, I'm sure every organization has some process by which any members in good standing, in the deemed appropriate number, can propose changes to be voted on by the membership at Convention. Has that deadline passed? Or do you anticipate there will be a vote brought forth at Convention 2015 to repeal this decision?

[naraht]

Originally Posted by OneHeartOneWay

a slight hijack from the hazing conversation, back to the logistical one:

(and obviously if this is treading too close to private member information, no worries): What is SAE's process for proposing bylaws changes at convention? Meaning, I'm sure every organization has some process by which any members in good standing, in the deemed appropriate number, can propose changes to be voted on by the membership at Convention. Has that deadline passed? Or do you anticipate there will be a vote brought forth at Convention 2015 to repeal this decision?

The conventions are in summer, so less than 40% of the time from the last convention to the next has taken place. Having the limit on new bylaws already pass seems prohibitive.

On another topic, according to http://www.saesd.org/images/document...er_2013_07.pdf
Since it was known prior to the 2013 convention that Brad Cohen was the only candidate running for Supreme Archon and he lived in Newport Beach, that this mean that the 2015 convention *must* be held in Newport Beach. Is this correct that the convention is held in the city that the current Supreme Archon lives in? And if so, what if someone lives in an area of the country where there is no place to assemble large enough for the convention representatives (say northern Wyoming)

Alpha Phi Omega has gone to the other extreme, the board has basically gone through all of the possible cities looking for hotel or hotel/convention center combinations that are large enough to host (meeting space for 1500, etc) and *only* those cities can be bid, so that for example, the only possible way to have the convention in Virginia would be to have it in the DC Suburbs.

[SAEalumnus]

Originally Posted by OneHeartOneWay

a slight hijack from the hazing conversation, back to the logistical one:

(and obviously if this is treading too close to private member information, no worries): What is SAE's process for proposing bylaws changes at convention? Meaning, I'm sure every organization has some process by which any members in good standing, in the deemed appropriate number, can propose changes to be voted on by the membership at Convention. Has that deadline passed? Or do you anticipate there will be a vote brought forth at Convention 2015 to repeal this decision?

The deadline for submissions for the 2015 Convention is 15 December 2014. There will definitely be something submitted to that effect, if not already sent in.

[SAEalumnus]

Originally Posted by naraht

The conventions are in summer, so less than 40% of the time from the last convention to the next has taken place. Having the limit on new bylaws already pass seems prohibitive.

On another topic, according to http://www.saesd.org/images/document...er_2013_07.pdf
Since it was known prior to the 2013 convention that Brad Cohen was the only candidate running for Supreme Archon and he lived in Newport Beach, that this mean that the 2015 convention *must* be held in Newport Beach. Is this correct that the convention is held in the city that the current Supreme Archon lives in? And if so, what if someone lives in an area of the country where there is no place to assemble large enough for the convention representatives (say northern Wyoming)

Alpha Phi Omega has gone to the other extreme, the board has basically gone through all of the possible cities looking for hotel or hotel/convention center combinations that are large enough to host (meeting space for 1500, etc) and *only* those cities can be bid, so that for example, the only possible way to have the convention in Virginia would be to have it in the DC Suburbs.

It "must" be in Newport only because Brad Almighty commands it to be so.

[OneHeartOneWay]

Originally Posted by naraht

The conventions are in summer, so less than 40% of the time from the last convention to the next has taken place. Having the limit on new bylaws already pass seems prohibitive.

yes, yes! When I started typing my question I was thinking Convention was this summer, then realized it was 2015 and didn't think to change that part! Oops!

[SOM]

Interesting posting from SAE's ESA Cohen: March 9th

"To all those that think the SC is wrong, consider this. Thursday afternoon, we received notification from JP Morgan who handles millions of our dollars informing us they would no longer do business with SAE as a result of all they have seen and read in the past few months. If a business who makes a lot of money off SAE dumps us, who would be next? Universities, Lloyd's of London? I am convinced we are doing the right thing. I'd rather have no pledge programs than no fraternity. Thank you to the thousands who are supporting the Supreme Council and the new True Gentleman Experience. Change is not easy but like we have done in the past, we will get through this better and stronger than before." Given the bad press that JP Morgan has been getting.....hum.

[badgeguy]

I guess it's true...money IS the root of all evil!

[SAEalumnus]

Originally Posted by SOM

Interesting posting from SAE's ESA Cohen: March 9th

"To all those that think the SC is wrong, consider this. Thursday afternoon, we received notification from JP Morgan who handles millions of our dollars informing us they would no longer do business with SAE as a result of all they have seen and read in the past few months. If a business who makes a lot of money off SAE dumps us, who would be next? Universities, Lloyd's of London? I am convinced we are doing the right thing. I'd rather have no pledge programs than no fraternity. Thank you to the thousands who are supporting the Supreme Council and the new True Gentleman Experience. Change is not easy but like we have done in the past, we will get through this better and stronger than before." Given the bad press that JP Morgan has been getting.....hum.

In other words, the ends justify the means, even when the means violate the Fraternity Laws and disenfranchise hundreds of members of the Fraternity Convention. He could have tried being open and honest about the situation from the beginning. The Eminent Supreme Arrogance of Brad Cohen knows no limits.

[Griffins&Quills]

I think that his post is more infuriating. The manner that the program was announced and forced in is one of the main issues, and he also makes it abundantly clear that it's about money and covering their asses. That's not right. That's not what fraternities and sororities are primarily about. And again, ending pledging won't end hazing.