right/wrong

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by macallan25

If you are going to tell me that beating someone with a 2X4 or killing them via making them drink too much is on the same level, in illegality, as having a study hall or a test of fraternity knowledge or cleaning the fraternity house or making pledge have a dress code...........then you are an absolute moron...and a naive one at that.

Don't be an idiot.

I'm not telling you that. Your university administration and your lawmakers are. I'm not taking a position on whether they're right or wrong.

Your name calling doesn't fix anything. No matter what you say or believe, hazing is ILLEGAL, whether the definitions are right, wrong or indifferent.

I've been around this stuff for years as an undergraduate, an advisor and a division officer. Frankly, some people act like spoiled little wet behind the ears rich kids who, as near as I can tell, have no clue about how much trouble this stuff can cause. How's that for name calling? But this isn't a matter of who can yell the loudest and call people names. It's a matter of survival for not only our chapters, but the Fraternity and Sorority system as we know it.

I went through rush and pledging before this stuff was against the law, and frankly I doubt that you have any idea of what went on in that period. If you think that our brotherhood stronger, you're wrong. That's rhetoric instead of reality.

You can yell "naive" all you want, but some of us have a whole lot of experience that you (global you) don't and we can use that experience to come to logical conclusions that you don't have the background to even consider.

Times have changed, and the stuff that your daddys and I went through have to be memories -- or our chapters will be. I hope that you don't discover that the hard way, given present circumstances.

University administrations and state legislatures have decided that they have to stop hazing because little things lead to bigger ones and sooner or later someone gets badly hurt or killed. Maybe some have over reacted, but that's beside the point. They have the elected or appointed right to do that.

On both sides of the argument, it's the famous, "give them an inch and they'll take a mile" syndrome. Unfortunately, the cliche' is too true all too often.

Insurance companies have decided that because of the rules and laws that have been put in place, they won't insure chapters that don't obey those laws. Suits have been filed against everyone from chapter members, officers, advisors, nationals, house corporation members, university administrators and even parents. Even if you're insured, if you break the law or the rules, the insurance company isn't going to pay damages -- they're going to cancel the policy and run the other way. They have the power to do that, too.

Want to write a few million dollar checks out of the chapter treasury?

When are you all going to figure out that it doesn't matter whether study tables, quizes, scavenger hunts, house cleanups, sleep deprivation, lineups, hell week and the like may not be dangerous? Somebody in authority at the university, the legislature or the GLO have decided that they won't be tolerated. Did I mention that they have the power to do that until a court decides they're wrong?

That doesn't even touch on drugs and underage drinking.

The bottom line is this -- take a look at the threads in this forum. Check out how many chapters have been suspended. See how many university administrations are cracking down. Look at how many nationals have been backed into a corner and forced to crack down on chapters for things they might have overlooked in the past. Consider how insurance rates have skyrocked. More than that, look at how many lawsuits have been filed. Even worse, consider how many people have been hurt or even killed when little things went just one step too far.

Then, when your chapter is gone, consider who is the moron. Who is niave. It's not the ones who enforce or obey the rules, it's the ones who break them.

Don't be an idiot.

[Animate]

Wow! Well put DeltAlum!

[jessiwannabe]

This has been taken out of context on my behafe all I am saying, hazing is wrong and illegal this is true. I'm not a thug I know what hazing is I just believe no membership is given you earn it and what ever I am assigned to do I will to the tee, and If I want it bad enough I will go to the extent for them beacause I will soon become a part of their family. I went to them the didn't come to me. If I can avoid all hazing that's fine, it will be great. I'm just a advocate believer that you prove yourself to them their will be others who want it just as bad as you do but they are only going to pick the strong and worthy to wear their colors and those who stand out for what the organization believes in Your impression goes beyond your interview, How else can you know that I'm what you want. You can not know i'm right just by sitting their I could be telling you what you wanna hear. I'm for trusting actions not words depending on what the situation is.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by jessiwannabe

This has been taken out of context on my behafe all I am saying, hazing is wrong and illegal this is true. I'm not a thug I know what hazing is I just believe no membership is given you earn it and what ever I am assigned to do I will to the tee, and If I want it bad enough I will go to the extent for them beacause I will soon become a part of their family. I went to them the didn't come to me. If I can avoid all hazing that's fine, it will be great. I'm just a advocate believer that you prove yourself to them their will be others who want it just as bad as you do but they are only going to pick the strong and worthy to wear their colors and those who stand out for what the organization believes in Your impression goes beyond your interview, How else can you know that I'm what you want. You can not know i'm right just by sitting their I could be telling you what you wanna hear. I'm for trusting actions not words depending on what the situation is.

Maybe you'll find out if you become a member in an organization. The info you're asking for can stray too close to private practices. And honestly you seem like you're fishing for information that you've already been told is off limits.

[jessiwannabe]

Well that's what you think. I already made up my mind I know it's off limits but if you scream and shout this is wrong you should have another plan. Don't talk about it be about it. If you don't have an idea of changing anything hush. The world don't give a hoot about how sensitive people are and especially black people. We have it harder to prove than anyone else out their.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by jessiwannabe

Well that's what you think. I already made up my mind I know it's off limits but if you scream and shout this is wrong you should have another plan. Don't talk about it be about it. If you don't have an idea of changing anything hush. The world don't give a hoot about how sensitive people are and especially black people. We have it harder to prove than anyone else out their.

Luckily all of our organizations have our own ways of selecting, educating and otherwise preparing our new members to become actives and we don't need your help crafting new ones.

Speaking of proving one's self, you'd do better with a grammar check.

[1908Revelations]

*Stepping on my soap box*

I prove myself worthy each and everyday! I work hard for myself, my family (no kids, just my parents and little brother), my church, the kids in the Birmingham school system, and for my Sorority. My chapter is an EAF platinum chapter in the South Eastern Region (the only undergraduate chapter if I am not mistaken). I proved myself worthy Saturday at Habitit for Humanity. I prove myself worthy when I choose to converse with members who have been in the sorority since 1972 and gain thier insight. I choose to read my history book, protocol, manual os standard procedure, and constutition and bylaws. When I went to rush my letter of interest showed what I have done along with my evidence of community service! I am also, Platform IV chairman and I have great ideas that my graduate advisor loves!

Members prove themselves daily....I know I do!

Was I beaten in.....NO! Do I know everything there is to know about Alpha Kappa Alpha....No, but I am willing to learn and I refresh my memory by educating myself and learning from seasoned members.
**Off of soap box**

Rethorical question: How do you prove yourself? You don't have to answer; just think about it to yourself.

Thank you.

ETA: Whew!

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

I'm not telling you that. Your university administration and your lawmakers are. I'm not taking a position on whether they're right or wrong.

Your name calling doesn't fix anything. No matter what you say or believe, hazing is ILLEGAL, weather the definitions are right, wrong or indifferent.

. . . .

DeltAlum, I think your post is very good. But I don't think it's a simple a thing as saying "hazing is illegal" and then arguing about whether it is or it isn't okay or is or isn't legal. The problem in a discussion like this is that there simply is no agreed upon definition of hazing. This is amply demonstrated in this and similar threads on GC.

The OP says some "hazing" is okay and then describes pre-initiation education, making posters and bringing actives candy. Others, like LPIDElta, point out that education is good and is not hazing unless there are consequences involved:

Originally Posted by LPIDelta

Some of the things you are talking about really aren't hazing--sometimes they get classified as such if there are consequences as a result of not completing the task. That is the difference between education and hazing. Its ok to ask new members to learn history--its another thing to ask them to do it under pressure or by memorizing many details. No one is going to get sued for educating members--they may get sued for going to extreme. I think we all recognize that.

But we don't all recognize that (depending on what "going to the extreme" means). In my fraternity and I'm pretty sure in others, one of the requirements of initiation is to pass a test on fraternity history and operations. Hazing? Apparently so, according to some.

Mac takes another perspective, questioning whether

Originally Posted by macallan25

. . . beating someone with a 2X4 or killing them via making them drink too much is on the same level, in illegality, as having a study hall or a test of fraternity knowledge or cleaning the fraternity house or making pledge have a dress code . . . .

Meanwhile, we have had numerous people at GC tell us it's hazing to use the term "pledges," as well as to forbid new members from wearing letters or doing vitually anything that makes a distinction between new members and initiated members.

It's easy enough to say "look at the official definition," but even that doesn't always help clear things up.

My fraternity defines hazing as "Any activity or situation that creates fear, mental distress, or undue apprehension in a member; harasses or degrades a member; or an activity which injures or threatens to injure a member’s physical or emotional well being; or any other activities which are not consistent with fraternal ritual or are considered a violation of the policies or regulations of a chapter’s educational institution, or state law." Our policy then gives a list of about 30 examples of what constitutes hazing.

The NPC, to give one example that applies to many GLOs, defines hazing in a similar manner: "any action or situation with or without consent which recklessly, intentionally or unintentionally endangers the mental or physical health or safety of a student, or creates risk of injury, or causes discomfort, embarrassment, harassment or ridicule or which willfully destroys or removes public or private property for the purpose of initiation or admission into or affiliation with, or as a condition for continued membership in a chapter or colony of an NPC member fraternity."

Meanwhile, though, my state defines hazing as "to subject another student to physical injury as part of an initiation, or as a prerequisite to membership, in any organized school group . . . ."

So where I live, while my fraternity or the NPC might consider something that causes mental distress to be hazing, the state would not -- meaning that in those instances, hazing is NOT illegal here. That doesn't take into account the differing definitions that can be found in the other 49 states and among specific GLOs and colleges/universities.

"Hazing," for understandable reasons, is a loaded word these days. The reality is that different people use "hazing" to mean different things, some of which may be illegal (or against GLO or university policies) and some of which may not. If we don't recognize that people are using different definitions of hazing, discussions like this one are doomed to devolve into unproductive arguments.

/lawyering

[Tom Earp]

What it boils down to is that many things that we do not consider hazing has just become that.

Why?

Because the many problems with hazing have grown like a wild fire and have injured possible members, GLOs and have raised the R M insurance that cost each of dearly.

So to blunt this everyone takes a knee jerk reaction and goes to the other side to but a stop to it.

Ergo because it continues, the GLO we put rules and regulations about it in our Constitutions and the States and Colleges enact the same.

You make your choice and if your chapter is booted off of campus do not ask why. Who does that hurt. Not any of us, but you and your Brothers/Sisters and National ranking in the thoughts of people who see this in the media.

[macallan25]

I'm well aware of what my university considers hazing and what they will do in respect to the actions performed by chapters called in to question.

Honestly, you can stop with the "hazing is illegal I don't care what you say blah blah blah" crap. I'm aware of that. Thanks. I'm also aware that your train of thought simply doesn't work in all situations. There isn't a sound definition of hazing....at all. Do you know some places consider withholding the date of initiation or big brother night from pledges hazing? Are you honestly going to sit here and tell me that keeping a secret is illegal? I hope you wouldn't. I don't need to search threads to see that numerous chapters get kicked off for hazing. I'd be interested to find a thread where a chapter got kicked off for making pledges wear tucked in Polos with khaki pants or made their pledge go to a study hall or made them clean the house or, again, something similar. Basically, I'd like to find a chapter that got kicked off campus for running a responsible pledgeship in which actives still made pledges actually earn their membership. Not all hazing involves mental distress and dangerous situations.

Also, I know plenty about what went on "in that period" There is not a single person in my family or extended family that wasn't Greek. I think I get the picture.

.....and as far as what is tolerated.....there is plenty that is tolerated and that is a fact. If you think otherwise, then I don't really know what to tell you. I'm certainly not going to argue about it.

It's a stupid discussion. It really is. The argument will go around and around in circles forever.

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

I'm not telling you that. Your university administration and your lawmakers are. I'm not taking a position on whether they're right or wrong.

Your name calling doesn't fix anything. No matter what you say or believe, hazing is ILLEGAL, weather the definitions are right, wrong or indifferent.

I've been around this stuff for years as an undergraduate, an advisor and a division officer. Frankly, some people act like spoiled little wet behind the ears rich kids who, as near as I can tell, have no clue about how much trouble this stuff can cause. How's that for name calling? But this isn't a matter of who can yell the loudest and call people names. It's a matter of survival for not only our chapters, but the Fraternity and Sorority system as we know it.

I went through rush and pledging before this stuff was against the law, and frankly I doubt that you have any idea of what went on in that period. If you think that our brotherhood stronger, you're wrong. That's rhetoric instead of reality.

You can yell "naive" all you want, but some of us have a whole lot of experience that you (global you) don't and we can use that experience to come to logical conclusions that you don't have the background to even consider.

Times have changed, and the stuff that your daddys and I went through have to be memories -- or our chapters will be. I hope that you don't discover that the hard way, given present circumstances.

University administrations and state legislatures have decided that they have to stop hazing because little things lead to bigger ones and sooner or later someone gets badly hurt or killed. Maybe some have over reacted, but that's beside the point. They have the elected or appointed right to do that.

On both sides of the argument, it's the famous, "give them an inch and they'll take a mile" syndrome. Unfortunately, the cliche' is too true all too often.

Insurance companies have decided that because of the rules and laws that have been put in place, they won't insure chapters that don't obey those laws. Suits have been filed against everyone from chapter members, officers, advisors, nationals, house corporation members, university administrators and even parents. Even if you're insured, if you break the law or the rules, the insurance company isn't going to pay damages -- they're going to cancel the policy and run the other way. They have the power to do that, too.

Want to write a few million dollar checks out of the chapter treasury?

When are you all going to figure out that it doesn't matter whether study tables, quizes, scavenger hunts, house cleanups, sleep deprivation, lineups, hell week and the like may not be dangerous? Somebody in authority at the university, the legislature or the GLO have decided that they won't be tolerated. Did I mention that they have the power to do that until a court decides they're wrong?

That doesn't even touch on drugs and underage drinking.

The bottom line is this -- take a look at the threads in this forum. Check out how many chapters have been suspended. See how many university administrations are cracking down. Look at how many nationals have been backed into a corner and forced to crack down on chapters for things they might have overlooked in the past. Consider how insurance rates have skyrocked. More than that, look at how many lawsuits have been filed. Even worse, consider how many people have been hurt or even killed when little things went just one step too far.

Then, when your chapter is gone, consider who is the moron. Who is niave. It's not the ones who enforce or obey the rules, it's the ones who break them.

Don't be an idiot.

[Tom Earp]

Hm, it seems that your GLO is in the news a lot lately. So, why is this?

[macallan25]

Oh.......I dunno.......probably because we had a pledge fall out of a 5 story dorm room building and he had alcohol in his system.

Probably good cause for an investigation.

They have opened and closed several investigations and found no wrongdoing on any of our parts. We will be fine. It's a difficult and upsetting situation....no need for you to trivialize it for the sake of an argument.

[jessiwannabe]

Well I prove myself in moral ways, life ways ,and in public ways. The moral ways I try not to disrespect anyone no matter how much they might deserve it. I also prove myself by living above the norm that is set for our race and especially by being a female we have to work twice as hard. We are not supposed to be educated and I think I prove that everyday by going to class and making the best grade in class. I also talk to kids that are in high school because that is where you are most influenced by other people. I mainly talk about the stress that you could be put under by parents because my sister shot herself because she never thought she was good enough. I tell them never under any condition let someone tell you you're not good enough, because I know how that feels cause it hit close to home. I prove myself to be uplifting to others. My greatest joy is to see someone take my words and use them well and I see them later on and they are better off. I have a big heart for community change and willing to be a part of that change and say twenty years form now I've made a difference. Right now I am working on the mayor campaign cold calling and posting signs up to vote for Larry Langford!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hahahhaha

[DeltAlum]

We can all agree that there is no common definition of hazing, and we can all agree that some of the things that are called hazing are dumb. OK, stupid.

It just doesn't matter unless or until somebody can change that.

We break the rules, they file suits or arrest us or take our charters away.

Why play that game?

We don't hold the power here. We're nowhere close to a majority.

Breaking the law is not an option for us in the long term.

[jessiwannabe]

Well said