Katrina, and the UN

[f8nacn]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Because we think its ridiculous to hear about how the government failed them.

And for some they have...that is their reality...

[shinerbock]

How have they failed them?

[f8nacn]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

How have they failed them?

I said for some they have - that is THEIR reality! Not MY reality!

[shinerbock]

So what you're saying is, because some people blame the government, the government has failed them? The government rarely fails people in reality, because its not their role to begin with.

[f8nacn]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

So what you're saying is, because some people blame the government, the government has failed them? The government rarely fails people in reality, because its not their role to begin with.

So you think the government is innocent in all things? I don't think so. I do support President Bush; however, he has made some mistakes, as with every President and/or government entity! Certain politicians make people beleive what they want to believe and then in turn make choices contrary to what they've agreed to. Thus the life of a politician.

[shinerbock]

No, the government obviously makes mistakes. What I'm saying is that many of those "mistakes" are based upon ridiculous expectations of citizens. I think that is the situation with the majority of Katrina issues, people expecting more than they should from the government.

[f8nacn]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

No, the government obviously makes mistakes. What I'm saying is that many of those "mistakes" are based upon ridiculous expectations of citizens. I think that is the situation with the majority of Katrina issues, people expecting more than they should from the government.

Can't really argue with you there...that is a valid point..and that is why a majority of people have been hurt...

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by f8nacn

And how many of them actually had insurance...let alone flood insurance? And to quote you - don't be an idiot!

I'm not being an idiot. You claimed that "most of us wouldn't leave our homes or heritage".....and I refuted your claim. I don't know how many did, nor is it my concern. Frankly, I wouldn't live on the gulf coast, let alone somewhere below sea level on the gulf coast if I didn't have the means to have something as basic as flood insurance.

[f8nacn]

Originally Posted by macallan25

I'm not being an idiot. You claimed that "most of us wouldn't leave our homes or heritage".....and I refuted your claim. I don't know how many did, nor is it my concern. Frankly, I wouldn't live on the gulf coast, let alone somewhere below sea level on the gulf coast if I didn't have the means to have something as basic as flood insurance.

That's definitely your choice! But how many people have the choice to move from a place that they were born (without the financial means)?

[DeltAlum]

"The United States said federal and Louisiana state authorities were examining many of the issues raised by the committee."

Getting back on topic, I'm not going to spend any time defending the UN -- I worked there most of last summer for a contractor managing their radio, TV and Conference engineers, and there are a lot of things wrong there.

However, the quote above -- from the US Government -- would seem to indicate that this report is not entirely off base.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by f8nacn

And let us remember that there are people in the United States who are attempting to make it, not relying on the government for anything, yet those people are making minimum wage (which is a laughing stock) and they are barely making ends meet. They aren't "expecting" anything from anyone, yet they are STILL STRUGGLING to make ends meet. I know, what we would call, "wealthy" people who are still struggling to make ends met. What is wealth and prosperity if knowing at the end of the month or in between pay cycles one only has .05 to his name, yet they are the ones driving the luxury - overly expensive vehicles, living in the best neighborhoods?

There is a struggle on every economic class - it is not just the poorer than poor - its every day people who are working to make ends meet daily!

What is your point? That we all have to do stuff to get stuff? Is that what passes for a 'struggle' these days? It's a dramatic as heck word. I still contend that the very fact that someone is working a minimum wage job is their own fault. You don't end up as an adult with no marketable skills without having any input into the situation yourself. It was an option to finish high school and then go to some college/votech program to learn marketable skills. There may have been an apprenticeship position somewhere. Job Corps is available. Yeah, I guess they all require you to do stuff in order to get stuff and thus "struggle," but really.. so what? Am I supposed to feel sorry for some idiot who chose to drop out of high school and have babies thinking that their job at White Castle would provide?

And actually, if they weren't taking care of things themselves, e.g., owning a car, having flood insurance, etc., then they were relying on someone else. New Orleans has flooded before. Everyone who lives there knows or should know that the levee system is inadequate for some storms. Everyone knew or should have known that such a storm was a decent possibility. Therefore, if they weren't prepared for the eventuality of a storm, then they were expecting someone else to be prepared for them. There is no truth to your statement that they weren't dependant on someone else. Show me one minimum wage worker that isn't also receiving some sort of government benefit -- TANF, WIC, Section 8 Housing, etc.

[shinerbock]

The new minimum wage hike, if it get signed, is a government benefit. I've never understood how people can claim to support domestic small business growth, and then try to raise the minimum wage as if it will help. Maybe its just me, but a lot of the minimum wage earners I've come in contact with, aren't worth 7 bucks and an hour.

[valkyrie]

Originally Posted by ktsnake

I've taken the excuses and bolded them. I've taken the things that are 100% your hypothetical fault and underlined them. In this situation, it was your own decision not to go to school. It was your own decision not to read. You were presented with the information that you mom was an effup, and you did nothing to make sure the same thing didn't happen to you.

The thing is, you're looking at the situation from your own perspective. From where you sit in your cushy little life, it's easy to say what is someone's "fault" and what is an "excuse." I mean, come on -- "it was your own decision not to go to school" -- WTF? Because a 10 year old should be held accountable for not going to school when mommy doesn't make him? A little kid can determine that his mom is an "effup" and ensure that he doesn't grow up the same way? If mom being an "effup" and you not going to school is all you have known for your entire life and you do not have the perspective of someone who has enjoyed relative privilege, such as ktsnake how do you even KNOW that there is an alternative, much less how to make it happen?

I don't know -- it's pretty clear that you've seen the worst of people who've been screwups or who've taken advantage of the system. Sometimes, there are people whose lives are SO jacked from SUCH a young age that it's nearly impossible for them to achieve the level of success you seem to think is possible.

Someone else mentioned the "lazy, ignorant people" who stayed in N.O. during Katrina -- I would find it VERY hard to believe that most of the people who stayed did so because they were lazy or ignorant. If you're really poor, you don't have a car. You don't have money for bus tickets. You don't have money to pay for a hotel somewhere or to eat at restaurants or do whatever you have to do to survive after leaving home. WTF are you supposed to do?

[f8nacn]

Originally Posted by ktsnake

What is your point? That we all have to do stuff to get stuff? Is that what passes for a 'struggle' these days? It's a dramatic as heck word. I still contend that the very fact that someone is working a minimum wage job is their own fault. You don't end up as an adult with no marketable skills without having any input into the situation yourself. It was an option to finish high school and then go to some college/votech program to learn marketable skills. There may have been an apprenticeship position somewhere. Job Corps is available. Yeah, I guess they all require you to do stuff in order to get stuff and thus "struggle," but really.. so what? Am I supposed to feel sorry for some idiot who chose to drop out of high school and have babies thinking that their job at White Castle would provide?

And actually, if they weren't taking care of things themselves, e.g., owning a car, having flood insurance, etc., then they were relying on someone else. New Orleans has flooded before. Everyone who lives there knows or should know that the levee system is inadequate for some storms. Everyone knew or should have known that such a storm was a decent possibility. Therefore, if they weren't prepared for the eventuality of a storm, then they were expecting someone else to be prepared for them. There is no truth to your statement that they weren't dependant on someone else. Show me one minimum wage worker that isn't also receiving some sort of government benefit -- TANF, WIC, Section 8 Housing, etc.

I would have to disagree with you. Let's say that there is a family who has had a nice corporate job with a nice salary and benefits; however, s/he gets laid off because of cutbacks. Even though s/he has marketing skills and a great educational background, its been difficult to obtain new employment, thus sacrificing yet not relying on any government assistance and gets a job that only pays minimum wage.

So the question that I have for you is...where are you getting your statistcs and/or proof that those who earn minimum wage are receiving some form of assistance?

There's a possibility that I'm right...there's a possibility that you are right....we can not speak for the majority EITHER WAY because more than likely we DO NOT have the facts.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by f8nacn

I would have to disagree with you. Let's say that there is a family who has had a nice corporate job with a nice salary and benefits; however, s/he gets laid off because of cutbacks. Even though s/he has marketing skills and a great educational background, its been difficult to obtain new employment, thus sacrificing yet not relying on any government assistance and gets a job that only pays minimum wage.

So what exactly is your point? The family has to do things to get things. First off, they're entitled to unemployment benefits. When those run out, if they still haven't found a job, there's always freelance work for people with decent skillsets.

My aunt found herself in the same position not too long ago. She and her husband started up something called the "CEO College," training CEOs to deal with the public relations aspects of their jobs. They're now doing quite well, and they're completely self-sufficient.

So the question that I have for you is...where are you getting your statistcs and/or proof that those who earn minimum wage are receiving some form of assistance?

100% of people who work for minimum wage are eligible for benefits. Whether or not they take advantage is at their sole discretion.

There's a possibility that I'm right...there's a possibility that you are right....we can not speak for the majority EITHER WAY because more than likely we DO NOT have the facts.

100%.