Mormons won't stop baptizing dead Jews

[Rudey]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
To be honest, that's a non-issue to me as well. (In more ways than one, since I plan to be cremated and my body's not going to lying around waiting to be violated by freaks.) I don't really care what happens to my body after my death. I'm not going to be conscious of it, I'm not going to be experiencing it, why do I care?


For the record, if Mormons want to baptize me by proxy, they can go ahead.

Again good for you. This thread was about what Mormons were doing to Jews and how Jews felt about it.

-Rudey

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by Rudey
Again good for you. This thread was about what Mormons were doing to Jews and how Jews felt about it.

-Rudey

So wait, non Jews aren't supposed to comment on this thread?

[Rudey]

Originally posted by valkyrie
So wait, non Jews aren't supposed to comment on this thread?

Let me break things down for you since you took me off ignore to tell me you want people on Greekchat to kill me and make off comments like this:

1) This is an article regarding those of the Jewish faith that have lodged a complaint against Mormons. This was not an article on Sugarandspice and how she feels about Mormons baptizing her after death.

2) There is no moderator saying sugarandspice can't comment. Heck nobody said anything about other non-Jews that commented.

3) You are making assumptions about what I said. Too bad the assumptions are wrong. Perhaps you should use your time more wisely.

-Rudey

[sugar and spice]

As I said before, they can get upset about whatever they want. However, nobody's come up with any valid reasons for being upset. I think the problem here is a misunderstanding of the Mormon religion, not the actual act being done. Many equate baptism with conversion, but that isn't the case here.

Mormons are not converting anyone.
They aren't actually digging people up and using their bodies for the baptism . . . thus why the necrophilia analogy isn't really applicable here.
They aren't violating anyone's belief system because they're not forcing people to become Mormons. (Their door-to-door sermonizing is much more intrusive than baptism by proxy.)

All that they're doing is invoking someone's name when they baptize someone else. Who cares? It doesn't affect the person being "baptized" in any way, shape or form. Chances are that even their descendents will never know about it -- for everyone that's posted in this thread, your ancestors probably HAVE been baptized Mormon.


There are plenty of things about Mormons that bother me far more than this. Their institutionalized racism, their mistreatment of women, the amount of money spent on building their (insanely gaudy) temples that could go towards more worthwhile goals, the hypocracy of Joseph Smith . . . but this is nothing, really.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
As I said before, they can get upset about whatever they want. However, nobody's come up with any valid reasons for being upset. I think the problem here is a misunderstanding of the Mormon religion, not the actual act being done. Many equate baptism with conversion, but that isn't the case here.

Mormons are not converting anyone.
They aren't actually digging people up and using their bodies for the baptism . . . thus why the necrophilia analogy isn't really applicable here.
They aren't violating anyone's belief system because they're not forcing people to become Mormons. (Their door-to-door sermonizing is much more intrusive than baptism by proxy.)

All that they're doing is invoking someone's name when they baptize someone else. Who cares? It doesn't affect the person being "baptized" in any way, shape or form. Chances are that even their descendents will never know about it -- for everyone that's posted in this thread, your ancestors probably HAVE been baptized Mormon.


There are plenty of things about Mormons that bother me far more than this. Their institutionalized racism, their mistreatment of women, the amount of money spent on building their (insanely gaudy) temples that could go towards more worthwhile goals, the hypocracy of Joseph Smith . . . but this is nothing, really.

"Who cares?" Jews obviously.

Why? For many reasons mentioned in this thread.

-Rudey

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
As I said before, they can get upset about whatever they want. However, nobody's come up with any valid reasons for being upset.

There are plenty of things about Mormons that bother me . . . but this is nothing, really.

Sometimes, perspective and context make a world of difference.

While as a general proposition, I might agree with you, the context in which this thread arose is proxy baptism of Jews. I imagine (which is all I can do, since I am not Jewish) that the history of forced conversions (which included forced baptisms) or might-as-well-as-have-been-forced conversions that often came along with Anti-Semitism is powerfully at play here -- and as Madeleine Albright can attest, we're not necesarily talking about ancient or medieval history. Given that history, to learn that Jews who died in the Holocaust were being baptised by proxy would, I would think, be quite distressing.

We've looked at the idea of proxy baptism from a Mormon perspective, but for the purpose of this issue, we would also have to look at the Jewish perspective here. It is my understanding that from that Jewish perspective, the way in which the memory of the deceased is honored, both by family and the community at large, is of great importance, and that at least part of the understanding of life after death (which in Judaism is not an issue that receives too much definition) is tied into the way that the deceased's memory lives on. (Someone please correct me if I'm getting this wrong). From this perspective, it could be extremely offensive to the memory of the deceased to learn that he or she had been baptized by proxy.

[_Opi_]

That is just wrong.


You don't mess with dead people even if you are "helping" them.

[sugar and spice]

MysticCat -- I understand that. However, from a historical context, the part that was upsetting was that they were forced to deny their religion and practice another. That's not going on here -- no one is being forced to deny their religion. Even after the baptism, Jews are still Jews until they choose to be Mormons. No one is forcing them to make that choice. The baptism does not affect their faith at all.

I think this is largely an issue of semantics -- what the word "baptism" means to different people. It's a different thing in the Mormon religion than it is in many other divisions of Christianity, and to treat it like it's the same is what's causing the problem here. If proxy baptism was referred to by another word than "baptism," I doubt people would even blink twice at the act.

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
I think this is largely an issue of semantics -- what the word "baptism" means to different people. It's a different thing in the Mormon religion than it is in many other divisions of Christianity, and to treat it like it's the same is what's causing the problem here. If proxy baptism was referred to by another word than "baptism," I doubt people would even blink twice at the act.

I really don't think the problem can be made that simple. As I said earlier, I think that from a Jewish perspective, it would be seen as an afront to the deceased's memory, regardless of what it was called.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
MysticCat -- I understand that. However, from a historical context, the part that was upsetting was that they were forced to deny their religion and practice another. That's not going on here -- no one is being forced to deny their religion. Even after the baptism, Jews are still Jews until they choose to be Mormons. No one is forcing them to make that choice. The baptism does not affect their faith at all.

I think this is largely an issue of semantics -- what the word "baptism" means to different people. It's a different thing in the Mormon religion than it is in many other divisions of Christianity, and to treat it like it's the same is what's causing the problem here. If proxy baptism was referred to by another word than "baptism," I doubt people would even blink twice at the act.

It's you that wouldn't blink twice.

Others would and have.

Given that so much thought goes into the after-life, the body, funerals for Jews, a history of attempts by other religions to interfere, etc. it's understood that we care and given how quite a few other non-Jews sympathize, it seems they understand as well.

But OK we got the fact that you, who aren't Jewish, don't care.

-Rudey

[ASUADPi]

With everything that the Jewish population has had to put up with in the last hundreds if not thousands of years, can you blame them?

Judiasm has always been a persecuted religion because people don't understand it and some don't want to understand it. Thousands of Jews died in holy wars (and this is not to say that Catholics and other religious people didn't die either). 6 MILLION were SLAUGHTERED during the Holocaust!!!!!!

Take a step back and see if you can blame these people for being upset?

To this day they arestill being persecuted!!!!!

If I were Jewish I would find it a slap in my face what the Mormans are doing to the people who died in the Holocaust.

I'm not even Jewish and I still find it extremely offensive and tactless.

Like I said before, just because the Mormans believe that their view of heaven is the only "correct one", doesn't give them the right to "force" baptisms on dead people.

[valkyrie]

Are there any Mormons on GC who can explain this practice in a way that makes it seem even remotely well, not totally crazy and arrogant?

[Rudey]

The better question is why people have so much access to other peoples' records. Why is this allowed?

-Rudye

[cash78mere]

Originally posted by honeychile
Have you ever had that sensation that you really should just shake your head, and ignore a thread, but you just have to respond?

Ladies and Gentlemen of GreekChat, the members of the LDS church (Mormons) baptize EVERYONE whose records they find! Not just those who are Jewish, or Muslim, or Black, or Hispanic - ALL of them. To them, they are simply fulfilling the requirements of their faith - and this has been going on for over a hundred years.

Look at it this way: I'm doing some genealogical research, and find your ancestor, and I decide that, instead of being from America, I go through some ceremony and "recreate" your ancestor as a Tibetan. Does that make your ancestor a Tibetan? No. Does it affect your ancestor at all? No. Assuming that you are secure in your own faith, does it really, truly mean diddly-squat? No.

Yes, it's somewhat irritating - but so are half the posts on GreekChat!

that argument really doesn't hold weight. if it doesn't make your ancestor a tibetan (mormon) and doesn't affect your ancestor at all, they wouldn't be doing it! but they are so it obviously means something to them.

i am completely disgusted by what mormons are doing. i am neither mormon nor jewish, but i find this atrocious. without your permission, no one should have any right to do anything to you, your soul, or whatever.

jews continue to be persecuted. it's disgusting. this practice needs to stop because it is not their RIGHT to violate MY rights.

[HappyKappy]

Okay, after reading the article, I think it is clear that whatever Mormons are doing this post-mortem baptism thing are crazy. I mean, did you see who's on their list? They did the practice for Ghengis Khan, Adolf Hitler, and Josef Stalin! Who knows what other mass-murdering psychos they're inviting to their heaven. What kind of person actually wants to spend an eternity with Hitler? Or thinks that he should go to heaven? I think the fact that they want him up there and think that he can go should assuade the worries of people whose ancestors are being proxy-baptised (because I really don't think it works).