Hostage situation in Russia

[ZTAMich]

Originally posted by IowaStatePhiPsi
there was a letter in the ISU paper this morning saying that this situation in Russia is why teachers in the US should carry guns to school.

oh so my kids can steal it...whole new bag of worms for a whole new thread.

[Rudey]

I would just take the hostage's families into custody and torture them. But this isn't 50 years ago and I think they may have rules on that now or something.

-Rudey

[Kevin]

Originally posted by Rudey
I would just take the hostage's families into custody and torture them. But this isn't 50 years ago and I think they may have rules on that now or something.

-Rudey

Sometimes that's the only thing that works.

Terrorists are very aware that they are not constrained the same rules that the "good guys" are.

[DeltAlum]

BESLAN, Russia - More than 100 people were killed Friday in and around a Russian school as a three-day showdown between Russian security forces and suspected Chechen militants erupted in a bloody climax.

Amid a series of explosions, gunfire and screams of fleeing children, commandos stormed the building where militants strapped with bombs had held hundreds of captives since Wednesday. Most of the dead were children, and more than half of the 400 people hospitalized were students, Russian officials said.

Amid the chaos and rescue efforts, the Interfax new agency reported that three militants remained blockaded in the basement of the school, possibly including the head hostage-taker. An official said some children were still being held hostage in the building.

Russian officials said the violent conclusion was not part of a planned military operation, suggesting the events may have been triggered by the militants inside the school.

Reports from the scene varied on the numbers of hostages killed, although most reports suggested a gruesome toll.

Interfax said the building's roof had collapsed -- possibly from the explosives some militants had strapped to their bodies -- and that dozens were killed.

The Russian regional health minister said 409 people were wounded, including 219 children.

Russia's security chief said the storming of the school was not a planned operation.

"I want to point out that no military action was planned. We were planning further talks," the regional head of the FSB security service, Valery Andreyev, told RTR television.

Early news reports said the raid came after about 30 women and children broke out of the building, some bloodied and screaming.

Interfax said militants fired at children who ran from the building, and unconfirmed reports said some of the hostage-takers, possibly including women bearing suicide belts, may have taken hostages with them.

"Those children who remained in the school, in general, were not hurt," said a security official quoted by ITAR-Tass.

The firing subsided after about 45 minutes, but then kicked up again later. ITAR-Tass said the soldiers blew a hole in the building to help with the raid and other reports said some of the raiders had escaped, possibly taking children with them, and were fleeing Beslan.

The militants' demands had not been clear. Reports after the standoff began Wednesday said the attackers demanded the release of people jailed after attacks on police posts in June that killed more than 90 people in Ingushetia, a region between North Ossetia and the neighboring republic of Chechnya. However, officials said Thursday that the hostage-takers had not clearly formulated their demands.

Authorities estimated 15 to 24 militants held the school.

The militants' identity was also murky.

Lev Dzugayev, a North Ossetian official, said the attackers might be from Chechnya or Ingushetia.

[angelic1]

The pictures online are just horrific.

The heat must have been unbearable in there.. the children were running out of the building barely clothed.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by ktsnake
Sometimes that's the only thing that works.

Terrorists are very aware that they are not constrained the same rules that the "good guys" are.

Dershowitz has written a great book on the price of terrorism. It's cheap and that's why it's done.

-Rudey

[RACooper]

The footage of the gun battle on CBC and BBC was actually very informative...

From the looks of things when troops tried to remove the bodies of some killed in the initial taking of the school, the rebels/terrorists opened fire... but while this was happening it appears if some hostages started to escape; most likely because the rebels/terrorists were distracted by the actions out side... this of course forced action by both sides in order to try and gain control of the situation.

As the troops advanced towards the school you could make a number of distinct military units, as defined by both conduct and uniform.

There was opbvious members of the special forces, moving towards the fire fight in a control and disciplined fashion... but they were moving in, they weren't the instigators of the fire fight.

There was also a number of standard military personal, who unfortunately weren't acting with any sense of over strategy to co-ordinate their actions.

Finally there appeared to be some para-military units that were mixing in with both the civilians and the military personnel... from the looks of things they may have been members of either the local militia or one of the Cossack units that have been raised by the community of late.

The last group (paramilitary) is what I suspect touched off the assault, as they would have been the most emotionally invested in the situation, and would have risked a confrontation to recover the bodies of victims; either because of relation or in the case of the Cossacks for religious reasons.

[Rudey]

Where did you get that they were paramilitary?

By the way touching on the Arab connection:
"Up to 20 militants were believed to have been killed in the operation, according to Interfax. A Russian presidential aide said nine of those killed were Arab mercenaries, according to the news agency."
-MSNBC

As for what touched off the fighting:
"I want to point out that no military action was planned. We were planning further talks," the regional head of the FSB security service, Valery Andreyev, told RTR television.

His comments gave strength to earlier speculation the violent end to the siege in southern Russia may have been started by the Chechen militants inside the school."
-MSNBC

-Rudey

Originally posted by RACooper
The footage of the gun battle on CBC and BBC was actually very informative...

From the looks of things when troops tried to remove the bodies of some killed in the initial taking of the school, the rebels/terrorists opened fire... but while this was happening it appears if some hostages started to escape; most likely because the rebels/terrorists were distracted by the actions out side... this of course forced action by both sides in order to try and gain control of the situation.

As the troops advanced towards the school you could make a number of distinct military units, as defined by both conduct and uniform.

There was opbvious members of the special forces, moving towards the fire fight in a control and disciplined fashion... but they were moving in, they weren't the instigators of the fire fight.

There was also a number of standard military personal, who unfortunately weren't acting with any sense of over strategy to co-ordinate their actions.

Finally there appeared to be some para-military units that were mixing in with both the civilians and the military personnel... from the looks of things they may have been members of either the local militia or one of the Cossack units that have been raised by the community of late.

The last group (paramilitary) is what I suspect touched off the assault, as they would have been the most emotionally invested in the situation, and would have risked a confrontation to recover the bodies of victims; either because of relation or in the case of the Cossacks for religious reasons.

[RACooper]

Originally posted by Rudey
Where did you get that they were paramilitary?

-Rudey

Umm... by looking at their uniforms, insignia and weapons. They had a different camouflage pattern (close to the old US woodland design), as well as insignia of the old Russian Czarist flag on their shoulder patch, additionally their weapons were older designs, most appearing stock from the Cold War. Oh yeah and the fact that none of the troops in question had helmets... helmets tend to be a low priority for paramilitary troops, and further they don't tend to were them in combat situations (must be a macho thing).

[Rudey]

Originally posted by RACooper
Umm... by looking at their uniforms, insignia and weapons. They had a different camouflage pattern (close to the old US woodland design), as well as insignia of the old Russian Czarist flag on their shoulder patch, additionally their weapons were older designs, most appearing stock from the Cold War. Oh yeah and the fact that none of the troops in question had helmets... helmets tend to be a low priority for paramilitary troops, and further they don't tend to were them in combat situations (must be a macho thing).

So basically this is your word and not in the news?

There is the chance you're wrong and for me I've tended to trust the news out there and not just random observations here and there.

On another note, does anyone deny Arab and Muslim connections at this point?

-Rudey

Originally posted by RACooper
Umm... by looking at their uniforms, insignia and weapons. They had a different camouflage pattern (close to the old US woodland design), as well as insignia of the old Russian Czarist flag on their shoulder patch, additionally their weapons were older designs, most appearing stock from the Cold War. Oh yeah and the fact that none of the troops in question had helmets... helmets tend to be a low priority for paramilitary troops, and further they don't tend to were them in combat situations (must be a macho thing).

I don't think too many combatants worldwide with a brain forget to wear their headgear because they're macho nor can you tell exactly what unit/group these guys are from. Just my two cents...

[Rudey]

Originally posted by kappa2
I feel so deeply for the parents, the children, and those who did not make it. To know that even 7 year olds were denied food, water, restrooms...the horror of it all.

Is there any way that we, as greeks, as americans, as HUMANS can help at this point?

I don't think so.

-Rudey

[RACooper]

Originally posted by Rudey
So basically this is your word and not in the news?

There is the chance you're wrong and for me I've tended to trust the news out there and not just random observations here and there.

On another note, does anyone deny Arab and Muslim connections at this point?

-Rudey

Yes just my word and my observations... of course it used to be my job for around 7 years. I'll try to help out:

Taken from BBC site:

Okay in above picture the military equipement, uniforms and helmets identify these men as members of the Special Forces... which unit I don't know as they don't tend to were unit identifiers on their combat uniforms.


Okay in the above picture we see people that aren't in uniforms (well complete), have different weapons of varying quality. The man in the front is a member of the police, while the others have no specific indentifiers.


Okay finally we have a good example... okay the man on the right is wearing a uniform of the old US Woodland pattern which marks him most likely as a paramilitary member (nice runners though)... while the men on the left also have a intersting collection of different pieces of uniforms (note the one with a visible weapon is also the only one with boots)... now the guy with the rifle is possibly a member of the military or of the regional militia... the others are almost certainly paramilitary.

As for Arab militants being invovled... most likely yes there are "Arab" mercenaries involved... but then again there are mercenaries from many ethnic groups serving with the Chechens or against them. I am still hesitant to lump this action in with the conveinant label of "Muslim Terrorists", as most if not all demands made no mention of religion, but instead demands for the release of collegues, and the withdrawal of Russian troops from Chechnya.

[Rudey]

Dude this is your observation. What happens if that one guy you think may or may not be paramilitary just decided to wear that or say he had some specific reason for wearing it.

As for Arab and Muslim, Chechans are Muslim and often have Arab fighters fighting with them. That's nothing new. Religious demands? These fighters aren't fighting for an hour off to go pray. Their religion is tied in with their nationalism. Arab Muslims are fighting with Chechan Muslims because of Islam.

-Rudey

Originally posted by RACooper
Yes just my word and my observations... of course it used to be my job for around 7 years. I'll try to help out:

Taken from BBC site:

Okay in above picture the military equipement, uniforms and helmets identify these men as members of the Special Forces... which unit I don't know as they don't tend to were unit identifiers on their combat uniforms.


Okay in the above picture we see people that aren't in uniforms (well complete), have different weapons of varying quality. The man in the front is a member of the police, while the others have no specific indentifiers.


Okay finally we have a good example... okay the man on the left is wearing a uniform of the old US Woodland pattern which marks him most likely as a paramilitary member (nice runners though)... while the men on the left also have a intersting collection of different pieces of uniforms (note the one with a visible weapon is also the only one with boots)... now the guy with the rifle is possibly a member of the military or of the regional militia... the others are almost certainly paramilitary.

As for Arab militants being invovled... most likely yes there are "Arab" mercenaries involved... but then again there are mercenaries from many ethnic groups serving with the Chechens or against them. I am still hesitant to lump this action in with the conveinant label of "Muslim Terrorists", as most if not all demands made no mention of religion, but instead demands for the release of collegues, and the withdrawal of Russian troops from Chechnya.

[DeltAlum]

I don't know that these pics prove or disprove RA's thesis about how this mess started, but I do think that his commentary on there being numerous different military and paramilitary units is very likely.

To go back to Columbine again, perhaps the most serious problem for the law enforcement officers that day was the number of different jurisdictions that responded and the total lack of common communications equipment. They simply couldn't talk to each other, and that being the case, it was pretty difficult to organize a coordinated rescue effort.

I doubt that things in Russia are any better. I would add, and I'm sure RA would believe this as well, that Special forces, and to a lesser extent military units would exhibit much better discipline than their paramilitary counterparts.

So, while his points are not proven, I would say they are pretty good conjecture.