Would You Join a Masonic Lodge?

[dekeguy]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I had this long typed up thing, but basically this : http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/freemasonry.htm
Approved by the Pope, issued by Ratzinger. I found no documentation of JPII saying anything else unless you include those world conspiracy sites that say the Pope IS a Mason which strikes me as just a wee little bit unlikely. So I don't believe that there were comments by JPII to contradict Ratzinger's (again, papally approved) document. And that document was only clarification that the same rules still apply.

Being a Mason as a Roman Catholic is being in a state of sin and one should not receive Holy Communion. (Not personal, dekeguy)

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My concerns stem from the date of Cardinal Ratzinger's (as he was then known) document (1983) and my conversation with the late Cardinal Basil Hume in the mid-1990s. I fully support the Church's position that a Catholic should not join in anti-religious or athestic groups who work against belief in God. I am a convinced Roman Catholic, I am also a Jesuit educated Roman Catholic and the Jesuits constantly posed the rhetorical question "when God gave you a brain, do you suppose He had in mind that you do something with it"? When faced with a complicated question we were taught to think it through to its conclusion. It seems to me that guidance, received years after the date of the document in question, from a brilliant, superbly educated, and deeply devout Cardinal Archbishop who was a close personal friend of our late Pope John Paul II, would speak to me with very considerable authority. I think that perhaps there is something of a comparison of apples and oranges involved here. My understanding is that the Pope was, and rightly so, dead set against involvement with irregular (outlaw, for want of a better word) so-called masonic organizations. My understanding is that regular Masons, which include all those recognized by the United Grand Lodge of England and Wales, do not fit the definition of those prohibited groups. Regular Masons are in complete agreement with the Church's objections against these athestic and/or antireligeous groups and likewise forbid communication with any of these irregular bodies on pain of expulsion from regular Masonry.
Any other Masons, Catholics, and/or Catholic Masons have any thoughts or helpful comments?

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by dekeguy

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My concerns stem from the date of Cardinal Ratzinger's (as he was then known) document (1983) and my conversation with the late Cardinal Basil Hume in the mid-1990s. I fully support the Church's position that a Catholic should not join in anti-religious or athestic groups who work against belief in God. I am a convinced Roman Catholic, I am also a Jesuit educated Roman Catholic and the Jesuits constantly posed the rhetorical question "when God gave you a brain, do you suppose He had in mind that you do something with it"? When faced with a complicated question we were taught to think it through to its conclusion. It seems to me that guidance, received years after the date of the document in question, from a brilliant, superbly educated, and deeply devout Cardinal Archbishop who was a close personal friend of our late Pope John Paul II, would speak to me with very considerable authority. I think that perhaps there is something of a comparison of apples and oranges involved here. My understanding is that the Pope was, and rightly so, dead set against involvement with irregular (outlaw, for want of a better word) so-called masonic organizations. My understanding is that regular Masons, which include all those recognized by the United Grand Lodge of England and Wales, do not fit the definition of those prohibited groups. Regular Masons are in complete agreement with the Church's objections against these athestic and/or antireligeous groups and likewise forbid communication with any of these irregular bodies on pain of expulsion from regular Masonry.
Any other Masons, Catholics, and/or Catholic Masons have any thoughts or helpful comments?

The problem with that is, you have no proof of such statements. There has been no revoking of the rules and even a casual statement by JPII would need to be made official for that occur.

I had a Jesuit Catholic university experience and I do love them for their love of learning. You understanding appears to be based on hearsay because I can find no documentation of any change on the doctrine. It is not atheism that is at issue with the Church, the Church considers the theology propagated by Masonry to be incompatible with that of the church. (Got any issues with that statement, take it up with them, not me, I'm not really an expert at anything but googling)

It's still an excommunicable offense.

[dekeguy]

Drolfille,
Please don't see this as trying to pick a fight. I am not, I am just trying to work this out in my own mind as well. It is part of that "think it through to its conclusion" bit I mentioned earlier.
As you are a Jesuit educated Catholic you know that Doctrine must be promulgated ex cathedra by the Pontif speaking as head of the magisterium. Since no such DOCTRINAL pronouncement exists I believe that this issue is not doctrinal but administrative. It seems to be a disciplinary matter not unlike the old practices of not eating meat on Friday or the requirement to fulfil one's Easter Duties. Hearsay, which by the way follows different legal interpretations in the UK vice the US, is not at issue here in that the advice was directly received from the Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster, RC Primate of England, and the senior eccleastical authority in that Country. His advice was presumably based on his knowledge, but was not received as hearsay as it was guidance given directly under his authority which is absolute within his See and Metropolitan Province and remains so unless he would be removed by the Pontif, which he was not. Near as I can figure out the Cardinal gave guidance based on his personal knowledge and/or he exercised his authority to dispence the faithful from any NON-DOCTRINAL requirement.
Your thoughts would honestly be appreciated.

My father is Roman Catholic and he has been a mason for well over 25 yrs as well as other masons i know and or family members involved in other masonic bodies that are catholic i dont see how they have problems with it. Am i wrong?

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by dekeguy

Drolfille,
Please don't see this as trying to pick a fight. I am not, I am just trying to work this out in my own mind as well. It is part of that "think it through to its conclusion" bit I mentioned earlier.
As you are a Jesuit educated Catholic you know that Doctrine must be promulgated ex cathedra by the Pontif speaking as head of the magisterium. Since no such DOCTRINAL pronouncement exists I believe that this issue is not doctrinal but administrative. It seems to be a disciplinary matter not unlike the old practices of not eating meat on Friday or the requirement to fulfil one's Easter Duties. Hearsay, which by the way follows different legal interpretations in the UK vice the US, is not at issue here in that the advice was directly received from the Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster, RC Primate of England, and the senior eccleastical authority in that Country. His advice was presumably based on his knowledge, but was not received as hearsay as it was guidance given directly under his authority which is absolute within his See and Metropolitan Province and remains so unless he would be removed by the Pontif, which he was not. Near as I can figure out the Cardinal gave guidance based on his personal knowledge and/or he exercised his authority to dispence the faithful from any NON-DOCTRINAL requirement.
Your thoughts would honestly be appreciated.

From my understanding although the Pope speaking ex cathedra defines doctrine, not all doctrine is defined by ex cathedra. It is used very rarely.
From Newadvent.org

The action of the Church is summed up in the papal pronouncements against Freemasonry since 1738, the most important of which are:


Clement XII, Constitution "In Eminenti", 28 April, 1738;
Benedict XIV, "Providas", 18 May, 1751;
Pius VII, "Ecclesiam", 13 September, 1821;
Leo XII, "Quo graviora", 13 March, 1825;
Pius VIII, Encyclical "Traditi", 21 May, 1829;
Gregory XVI, "Mirari", 15 August, 1832;
Pius IX, Encyclical "Qui pluribus", 9 November, 1846;
Pius IX, Allocution "Quibus quantisque malis", 20 April, 1849;
Pius IX, Encyclical "Quanta cura", 8 December, 1864;
Pius IX, Allocution "Multiplices inter", 25 September, 1865;
Pius IX, Constitution "Apostolicæ Sedis", 12 October, 1869;
Pius IX, Encyclical "Etsi multa", 21 November, 1873;
Leo XIII, Encyclical "Humanum genus", 20 April, 1884;
Leo XIII, "Præclara", 20 June, 1894;
Leo XIII, "Annum ingressi", 18 March, 1902 (against Italian Freemasonry);
Leo XIII, Encyclical "Etsí nos", 15 February, 1882;
Leo XIII, "Ab Apostolici", 15 October, 1890.
These pontifical utterances from first to last are in complete accord, the latter reiterating the earlier with such developments as were called for by the growth of Freemasonry and other secret societies.

Clearly there have been more recent Church discussions on it, but this was the list of Papal encyclicals, allocutions and letters found in the Catholic Encyclopedia. This masonic site lists others http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-mason...cyclicals.html
The hearsay I'm talking about is supposed remarks by JPII which contradict everything else the Church has said on the matter. I can find nothing connecting JPII to any such remarks and would be interested in seeing them

Please see also this site, the retraction is the important part where the Judicial Vicar acknowledges his error, dated 2002 (again no mention of JPII) http://www.freemason.org/cfo/march_a...1/catholic.htm

See What is the Church's position on Freemasonry? It refers to the most recent pronouncement as the 1983 one by then Cardinal Ratzinger.

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally Posted by cutiepatootie

My father is Roman Catholic and he has been a mason for well over 25 yrs as well as other masons i know and or family members involved in other masonic bodies that are catholic i dont see how they have problems with it. Am i wrong?

I think you can read the posts above yours to see how.

[FatalDSTination]

Hello All...

I was hoping someone in this thread could help me; preferably someone who already travels. I have a co-worker who's mother died recently who was a Star in Pearl Chapter #131 out of Fort Worth, TX. Her mother was old but once apon a time was the Secretary for this chapter. She has no idea how to get in touch with them to notify them of her death. I have been trying to find contact info for over a week not but to no avail. The only thing that has been determined is this chapter is not PHA. The only additional info she could provide was that the Grand Sec at the time was Sis. Leola Jackson so any info, even Grand Chapter info, would be appreciated!

[risingstar]

Originally Posted by cutiepatootie

My father is Roman Catholic and he has been a mason for well over 25 yrs as well as other masons i know and or family members involved in other masonic bodies that are catholic i dont see how they have problems with it. Am i wrong?

No you are not wrong. Why are we talking about this?????? Because we really should not be....Wow, I thought that discretion was a big deal around here. I guess not.

[risingstar]

Originally Posted by FatalDSTination

Hello All...

I was hoping someone in this thread could help me; preferably someone who already travels. I have a co-worker who's mother died recently who was a Star in Pearl Chapter #131 out of Fort Worth, TX. Her mother was old but once apon a time was the Secretary for this chapter. She has no idea how to get in touch with them to notify them of her death. I have been trying to find contact info for over a week not but to no avail. The only thing that has been determined is this chapter is not PHA. The only additional info she could provide was that the Grand Sec at the time was Sis. Leola Jackson so any info, even Grand Chapter info, would be appreciated!

Hi! I will try to help you figure that out and I'll PM you. I am sorry your co-worker is going through this.

[risingstar]

Originally Posted by ISUKappa

It is discouraged by our church (the entire Synod of the church, not just my sigular church) to join fraternal organizations such as Masons or Shriners but other charitable orgs such as Lions Club or Kiwanis are okay (I think it has to do with the ritual/heirarchy of the Masons). No one I know personally is a member of a masonic organization. But if it's what you want to do, then, hey, more power to you.

This is new to me too. Where do you people get your info??? How would you people know about the rituals or if it has anything to do with the rituals????? Once again, DISCRETION......WOOOOOWWWWW....

[risingstar]

If one is not in an organization, one cannot speak on it intelligently. It would be strictly hear-say. I cannot speak on any of your organizations just based upon what I have read or heard. We deserve just as much respect as other organizations and I am starting to get offended as I read through this whole thread. Because if we were tearing apart another organization, you people would REALLY be offended.

[risingstar]

Originally Posted by AlphaSigOU

Freemasonry requires only a belief in a Supreme Being in order to become a member. How one worships that Supreme Being is left entirely up to the member.

The majority of Masons in the United States are Christian, so most times you will see the Holy Bible on the Altar. But there are Jewish, Buddhist, and yes, even Muslim members. Our ceremonies are suitably revised to reflect the name of the Volume of Sacred Light on the altar.

Jewish Masons tend to gravitate towards the Scottish Rite rather than the York Rite, as the the Knight Templar orders (the highest degrees of the York Rite) are specifically for those of the Christian faith.

This is 100% correct.

And this one statement sums everything up. There is really nothing else to discuss.

[ISUKappa]

Originally Posted by risingstar

This is new to me too. Where do you people get your info??? How would you people know about the rituals or if it has anything to do with the rituals????? Once again, DISCRETION......WOOOOOWWWWW....

Woah, Nellie. No need to get your knickers in a twist. None of us are tearing apart your organization, nor did we reveal any seekrits (besides, that post is from, like, 3+ years ago). If anything, this has been an informative, respectful thread with regards to Masons.

I simply stated my church's (Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod) official position/beliefs on membership in Masonic groups (which you can find here). I don't know how they came to that conclusion, maybe they had members infiltrate Masonic groups with teeny tiny microphones and spy cams. If you have a problem, take it up with them. FWIW, my church is on the conservative end of the Lutheran/Christian spectrum, so it's not a surprise to me that membership is discouraged/prohibited.

[risingstar]

Nobody is getting bent out of shape. I said what I had to say about my organization. Bottom line.

[ISUKappa]

Originally Posted by risingstar

Nobody is getting bent out of shape. I said what I had to say about my organization. Bottom line.

Originally Posted by risingstar

We deserve just as much respect as other organizations and I am starting to get offended as I read through this whole thread.

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