Letters

[ChaosDST]

Originally posted by Betarulz!
Our pledges get rush shirts that usually have letters on them some where.

Not to make people mad (and I'll probably get flamed for this), but I think it's a crock of **** to make people wait to get their letters...for a number of reasons.

Yeah, you should get flamed for that

Originally posted by Betarulz!
[B]Someone said earlier why wear letters when you don't know what they mean. I look at it this way, that person bears your organization's and chapter's name during their new member period. Their actions can be just as damaging to your chapter or organization as an initiated member...just because they can't wear the letters doesn't not make them a part of your chapter (on a trial basis). Other than the fact that they don't know the ritual, and can't attend chapter meetings, there isn't much difference between them and an initiated member.

That (combined with their not knowing what the letters mean)seems like a BIG difference, to me.

Originally posted by Betarulz!
I guess what I'm trying to say is look at what's really important in consideration to your letters, rather than the pettiness on when someone gets to wear them.

There's nothing petty about discussing when someone should get to wear letters. Just because you don't think your letters are important doesn't make those of us, who DO feel our letters are important, petty.

[ChaosDST]

Originally posted by Senusret I
I am in an NPHC Fraternity (Alpha Phi Alpha) as well as Alpha Phi Omega, the National Service Fraternity. (I speak for neither in an official capacity.)

First of all, I would like to say that I have enjoyed reading all of the diverse opinions on this matter. I believe that there is a misconception that NPC/NIC organizations "give away their letters." I hope that my NPHC Sorors and Fraters read this and realize that the practices and opinions involved are incredibly diverse.

In NPHC organizations, it is forbidden to wear letters until you are an initiated Brother or Sister.

I agree with the posters who say that letters must be earned.

In my opinon, the only case in which a "new member" should wear letters is if the meaning is explained to them in the pledge induction ceremony or if the meaning is public knowledge.

Much respect, fellow D9er

I'm used to IFC chapters that give away tshirts with their letters on them and let miscellaneous women frollick around in them.

But, I've also had enough exposure to see the OTHER side, where NPC and IFC members are VERY PROTECTIVE over their letters. I respect the latter much more than the former.


But, letters should be earned (whatever this means to your organization). So, if some organizations feel as though "pledges" have EARNED their letters by receiving a bid after going through rush...then to each her/his own.

That's just not how it's done in "our" neck of the woods

[OUlioness01]

betarulz isn't saying that his letters or anyone else's aren't important...just that people/new members are more important. there's nothing wrong with that. if you value your letters more than you value members of your org or provisional members than you have a problem (and i'm not saying any of you do before iget flamed for that)

[ChaosDST]

Originally posted by OUlioness01
betarulz isn't saying that his letters or anyone else's aren't important...just that people/new members are more important. there's nothing wrong with that. if you value your letters more than you value members of your org or provisional members than you have a problem (and i'm not saying any of you do before iget flamed for that)

Actually, betarulz said:

"The letters arent' important, it's the prinicples behind them that matter. The letters have value to you because of what they mean to you, this is why personally I don't care if I were to see someone wearing my letters who wasn't in Beta, b/c to them, they really don't mean anything"

So, if the topic was "Do you value your letters more than members or prospectives," I could see your interpretation of it. But, we're talking about WHEN people are allowed to wear letters. I can see what betarulz was saying, to a certain extent. But, it is possible (because most organizations do it) to simultaneously value your letters AND the individuals BUT still not want individuals to wear letters until they are duly initiated.

That's all

[AXPGoBot]

Chaos:

I totally agree with you, but I think some of you others are still missing the point. I have a lot of respect for those afforementioned Phi Kaps who take their letters very seriously. Despite what you may think, I still have some respect (thought not nearly as much) for those that just "hand them over." It's still your right and your choice to do so, so we should all respect that.

However, here's another way to look at it:

If you're hired to a new job, say, working at TGIFriday's. Most likely for something corporate like that, you'll be trained. You were HIRED, so you're technically an employee, but you're not really working yet, you're still in the process of learning about your responsiblities and such. You're not a FULL employee, you've taken the first steps, and more likely than not you'll go through all your training and become a full-fledge TGIFriday's waiter/waitress (or whatever). It's the same w/ pledging I guess in some ways. You were "hired" in the sense that you were given a bid, but you're not fully an "empolyee" yet. It's like some jobs where you get hired, but your boss might use your training period to decide if you're really cut out for the job or not, and sometimes, even you might realize that this job isn't really what you wanted!

Now imagine if you just showed up to the place to apply, got hired, and then immediately were thrown a uniform and told to wait on some tables. How much sense does that make? Not even factoring in the whole otehr side of getting your letters early (the not earning them, can't respect them, yada yada), this just seems silly.

When I hear something like what was said about the Phi Kappa Sigma chapter, I really have to stop and have a deep respect for their organization. But when I hear things like, "oh, are NMs get their letters after the first weekend," I find it hard to take them seriously; based on my experiences and those of other Greeks around the country that I'm close to. How can you claim to truly love your letters if you're frivously handing them out along with bids? ANd how can your NM's really even appreciate something like that when they don't even really understand what they're getting?

[wptw]

When it comes to GLO issues and ritual issues in particular, I’m a purist. It seems quite clear to me what our founders intended: That by investing chosen candidates with the secret ideals of the organization (mottoes, letters, oath, badge, symbols), they would forge an unbreakable bond with those men or women. They realized that they would still have very close friends and associates in their lives, but that the people who shared their secrets would be something higher and more perfect – they would be a brother/sister.

Investiture is the very essence of what makes someone your fraternity brother or sorority sister. So from a purist standpoint, no a NM is absolutely NOT your brother/sister.

I don’t see how this fact is disrespectful to a NM. On the contrary, selecting someone to be a NM of our organization and giving them a pledge pin to wear is a sign of great respect and honor.

The ritualist in me also believes that any “partial investiture” like handing out letters or contriving “filler ceremonies” dilutes the impact of the actual moment of initiation. Pledging should be a crescendo.

And coming from a blue collar family, I also firmly agree with AXPGoBot that the value of something earned far exceeds the value of something given.


wptw

[MSKKG]

AXPGoBot, although it's a good one, your example is a little faulty. Getting hired by TGIFriday's is like pledging, but being made to wait tables is like being initiated. No GLO that I know of pledges someone one day and initiates that person the next.

Your comment about the NMs not appreciating what they're getting is incomplete also. No PNM knows what he/she is "getting" when a bid is accepted. If that were the case, we would all reveal our secrets and the GLO whose secrets are closest to the PNM's philosophies would be the one picked.

I also take exception to your inference that because a GLO lets NMs wear its letters, the members must not truly love their GLO. I love everything about Kappa Kappa Gamma and was allowed to wear her letters. The crest was reserved only for initiated members, but we were allowed to have "KKG" and "Kappa Kappa Gamma" things. I think reserving the letters and the crest for only initiated members is fine, but I see nothing wrong with letting potential sisters or brothers wear the letters.

How do the GLOs that don't allow NMs to wear their letters handle Greek Week T-shirts, Recruitment T-shirts that Rho Chis wear, mixer T-shirts, etc., that include other GLOs on campus? The ones I've seen have the Greek letters on them.

[AXPGoBot]

Originally posted by MSKKG
Your comment about the NMs not appreciating what they're getting is incomplete also. No PNM knows what he/she is "getting" when a bid is accepted.

I think we're misunderstanding each other here. Obviously, no one knows the MEANING of the letters when they rush or even are given a bid. What I meant by saying "without really knowing what they're getting" is that they're not really aware of the imoprtance of being a select few able to share in the priviledge of being part of a Sister/Brother-hood. They can't possible understand the awesome gift they are being given, not nearly in the way that someone who has pledged for eight weeks understands.

Also, I think we're confused on what is meant when I say "letters." I think maybe it was a typo but it seemed like you contradicted yourself at one point. There's a big difference in my mind from wearing a shirt with ALPHA CHI RHO on it and wearing a shirt that has AXP on it. Also, if it's for some big NPC or IFC rush event, and the shirts have all the organization's letters on them, then odds are they're pretty small, and you can't really count this either. That's just sorta being anal. I know that somewhere there is a rule at our school that you're allowed to reproduce letters like that as long as they are under a specified size.

I see nothing wrong w/ walking around wearing a shirt that says: "I'm rushing alpha chi rho" or even "alpha chi rho pledge #54625" or whatever to be funny. Giving NM's things ilke this is fine, but honestly, I think it looks a bit tacky and cheesy most of the time.

[aephi alum]

In answer to MSKKG's question about recruitment/greek week shirts, at my school we just spelled out the names of all the GLOs. We have two sororities (AEPhi and Theta) that don't allow anyone but initiated sisters to wear letters, so the Panhel rush shirts have the names of all five orgs spelled out.

As for when you become a brother or sister of your org, IMO you're not a full brother or sister until initiation. There are certain privileges reserved for full members, depending on the org. For AEPhi one of those privileges is wearing letters, for other orgs it's wearing/displaying the crest, for most orgs the right to wear the badge or pin an S.O. with it is reserved for full members, etc.

But while you're a new member, you should be treated as a sister in certain regards. We are proud of our new members and encourage them to represent AEPhi by wearing their new member ribbons or pins and/or the letters spelled out - heck, the first thing we give them is a bid day shirt. If I saw an AEPhi NM drunk at a party, I wouldn't say "oh, she's just a NM, she's not my sister" and walk away - I would take her home and take care of her just as I would for an initiated sister. (OK bad example )

During the NM period, NMs are learning about their new org and getting to know the sisters and each other, and figuring out whether they really want to go through with initiation. Meantime, the org is evaluating the NMs. In most NPC orgs, the bid means "we want you as a sister" and it's tough to force someone to depledge, but if one of your new members turns out to be an ax murderer, I doubt nationals would balk if you asked her to depledge But you're still not a full sister until you have completed your new member education and you are initiated.

[AXPGoBot]

Well said, AEPhi, you put that in just the right way.

[OUlioness01]

Originally posted by AXPGoBot
I think we're misunderstanding each other here. Obviously, no one knows the MEANING of the letters when they rush or even are given a bid. What I meant by saying "without really knowing what they're getting" is that they're not really aware of the imoprtance of being a select few able to share in the priviledge of being part of a Sister/Brother-hood. They can't possible understand the awesome gift they are being given, not nearly in the way that someone who has pledged for eight weeks understands.

try telling a woman who has been heavily cut during recruitment but still got a bid from the house that truly was for her that she isn't aware of the importance of being a select few. i promise you that you'll get a completely different answer.

i respect all of your viewpoints but i can't help but disagree. maybe it's because i am so used to my national policy, but whatever. i can understand wanting to keep a tradition but no one should be allowed to control waht a nm wears or doesn't wear. my chapter had it's own traditions about wearing lavaliers but htat didn't mean that we were going to get upset because a new member had one. it just meant that the big would be dissappointed because she wouldn't get to buy one for her little.

wearing letters is really such a superficial thing. whatever you say, it's not the letters but the idea behind them that matters. my letters are important to me, but not as important as the sisters that connect themselves to me through them.

[texas*princess]

in our chapter, our first set of letters is given to the new members after initation, however, that doesn't mean our new members can't wear letters before being initiated.

Alpha Delta Pi's new members can wear letters, vote, go to meetings, & hold office just like initiated sisters can, and I think that's wonderful

[sairose]

Originally posted by MSKKG
No GLO that I know of pledges someone one day and initiates that person the next.

Actually, Alpha Gamma Rho fraternity does not have a pledge period at all; they are initiated on bid night. I believe there is another fraternity that does the same thing.

[AXPGoBot]

try telling a woman who has been heavily cut during recruitment but still got a bid from the house that truly was for her that she isn't aware of the importance of being a select few. i promise you that you'll get a completely different answer.

Try telling someone who has been pledging for three weeks that his grades weren't what he thought they were and we would be forced to drop from the program. I gaurentee you it'll mean a HELL of a lot more. And it did. This happened to my Little. When someone doesn't get a bid, they'll get over it, however upset they may be at the time. If you're dropped for a reason like that after actually WORKING FOR YOUR LETTERS for a time, you feel it much much more deeply.

**edited to add**
Next semester if he comes back and makes it to the end of the program I gaurentee you he will appreciate it more than the example you used.

Sorry, but you're wrong. No matter what you say someone who is handed letters will NEVER appreciate them as much as one who has earned them. Bottom line. End of argument.

[texas*princess]

Originally posted by AXPGoBot
Sorry, but you're wrong. No matter what you say someone who is handed letters will NEVER appreciate them as much as one who has earned them. Bottom line. End of argument.

No one is 'right' or 'wrong' here.. chill out! Your organization does things a certain way with your letters and our organizations do things differently. It doesn't mean any way is 'right' or 'wrong' it just means they are different.

I wore my letters since the day I became a new member and I love my sorority and everything behind it just as much as the next person. Just because I was able to wear my letters since becoming a new member does NOT mean I don't appreciate them as much as the person who "earned" them. In fact, I appreciate my letters much more, because I think it's so awesome that my sorority allows new members to have the same privilages (besides ritual of course) that their initiated sisters have.

This arguement has been going on forever, and there are probably 500 threads about it. Do a search

It's all a matter of perspective. There is no right or wrong here. Different organizations do things differently, and that doesn't mean they are in the right or wrong about it... that is just the way they do it.