Delta Omega Chi of MTV fame loses recognition

[wishinhopin]

I certainly wish those bylaws had been made more clear to us when we were struggling! I can only go by my own experiences with such things- and I know that even right now it's hard for us to be able to advertise/utilize campus facilities. There are rooms open, but once you mention it's for a Greek organization, oftentimes the space fills pretty quickly. It is usually only through the interference of the SOAR office that we are even able to have access to the same resources that other types of organizations have no problem acquiring. So I can only imagine how difficult things will be without the little faculty support that we have available. As for as parties...eh, I'm biased. Police breaking up DOC's parties has led to all of their party goers coming to our house parties, which resulted in there being too many people outside who weren't on the guest list, which resulted in the police showing up at our house and slapping myself and one of my sisters with a fat fine. They made very clear that, had they not had to deal with all the mtv/DOC drama, they would have been more understanding of our situation. That being said, I can see how people would consider them to be at the top of the party game. I often feel like DOC is doing this simply so they can live up to all of the stereotypes that people have pegged on them before they knew them. I suppose that's where my main problem lies. My sorority was founded in large part to work towards dispeling those rumors, so it's incredibly frustrating to me that now the general public is going to see such a distorted image of what greek life is. I guess I feel like DOC is being selfish, but really, I didn't expect more from them. And considering how little respect we have for them, and any other Greeks who so willingly participate in offensive and nationally televised activities, I wouldn't really expect them to have much respect for us either. Just my two (albeit lengthy) cents.

[Educated]

No.. but I'm one of those independent lifers who really should have been greek.. just never got around to it.

Some of the DOCs are my best friends, so I try to look out for their best interests.

Funny thing is, a lot of the points made aren't even incorrect. Don't get me wrong, the really mean stuff I will dispute.. but DOC really doesn't give a sh*t about 95% of UCSC because 95% of UCSC doesn't give a shit about them. They are down for no drama, no bullsh*t FUN and FRIENDSHIP. They are closer than ANYONE I know at UCSC, and they have the most fun.

People might knock it, but they are very happy with their situation.

[AYE FEE]

Trust me, I know the Greek climate at UCSC.

I wasn't trying to act 'high and mighty', I'm just pointing out that great parties are great parties, but that isn't alone what makes a great house.

Brotherhood makes a great house and since they have that, more power to them.

[wishinhopin]

I have no doubt that they're all about fun, friendship, and no bullshit. But they're not just affecting the 95% of UCSC who doesn't give a shit about them-they're affecting all of us. Beyond that, I hardly agree that they aren't about drama. I would go so far to say that they, as with many many many other groups of people, thrive on drama. From what I've observed, they love the stigma that they have- they love playing off of their reputation for being the crazy guys who don't give a f***. But they create drama all the time, why else would mtv film them? I don't really understand the high road that DOC and their friends/supporters seem to be taking. One of their members wrote to the local paper and stated that he was offended by the portrayal of Greeks in a recent article about the fish scandal. Hello....why do you think the general public keeps holding on (and publishing) these stereotypes- including but not limited to the use of the word "frat" instead of "fraternity"? Possibly because groups such as DOC keep putting themself in the public eye and perpetuating exactly the kind of behavior that they're renouncing. If that isn't drama, I don't know what is.

[texas*princess]

wishinhopin, i love the way you put that! they [doc] don't seem to understand that they aren't just affecting themselves.

what really surprises me is that one of their members wrote to the local paper about what happened and was upset! hel-lo!

[Educated]

I never read that article wishin.. what date was it?

[Educated]

Well, I couldn't find the article.. but here is my take.

If I was a member of the UCSC Muslim American club, and it turned out two of the members happened to be terrorists, I would be PISSED if my local paper ran things like, "UCSC Muslim Club turns out to be terrorists!"

I would then probably write a letter to the local paper if my ENTIRE organization got kicked off campus because of what two people did. If the paper was making my org out to be bad guys based on the actions of a few, I WOULD express my disapproval.

Let me just say, if this happened to the African American club on campus the NAACP would be down here in a heartbeat.

The two brothers could be hung from the bookstore balcony for all I care, but even IF DOC is all assholes I think they should sue the living shit out of the Regents. What they did was wrong.

[James]

Well put.

Originally posted by Educated
Well, I couldn't find the article.. but here is my take.

If I was a member of the UCSC Muslim American club, and it turned out two of the members happened to be terrorists, I would be PISSED if my local paper ran things like, "UCSC Muslim Club turns out to be terrorists!"

I would then probably write a letter to the local paper if my ENTIRE organization got kicked off campus because of what two people did. If the paper was making my org out to be bad guys based on the actions of a few, I WOULD express my disapproval.

Let me just say, if this happened to the African American club on campus the NAACP would be down here in a heartbeat.

The two brothers could be hung from the bookstore balcony for all I care, but even IF DOC is all assholes I think they should sue the living shit out of the Regents. What they did was wrong.

[wishinhopin]

http://www.santa-cruz.com/archive/20...6/edit/let.htm

I can definitely see your point that an entire group shouldn't be punished for the actions of a few. But here's the catch in this situation (in my opinion anyway): Every single member of DOC knew that MTV would be following their every move. Every single member signed a contract saying that anything they did or said during the duration of the show's filming could and most likely would be aired on national television. Thus, every single thing that every single member of DOC did would in some way reflect on DOC as a whole. I don't think every single member is as stupid as Casey and Matt- but I also think that their brotherhood needs to accept that these two acted in ways that necessarily denegrated their entire organization. If those two weren't smart enough to realize that their pointless (and entirely un-funny) prank would bring negative attention to their fraternity, well, it kinda sucks to be them. Bad press and Greek image concerns are always a topic...some random member of the PETA chapter/Young Democrats/Ultimate Frisbee/etc etc etc on a campus dies of alcohol poisoning, the newspapers all console the loss and perhaps make a comment regarding excessive alcohol use on college campuses. A fraternity member dies of the same affliction, nine times out of ten the paper is going to mention it as some sort of Greek related death. These are stereotypes and stigmas...so perhaps DOC should have thought ahead of time to speak to their members about the potential risk their actions had. As the president of my sorority, I expressed my concerns about mtv's presence on campus before they ever got there. I explained that I didn't want to chance of our sorority's name being tarnished by faulty editing, a desire to impress cameras, and/or and group/individual stupidity. We voted not to interact with DOC or MTV at all during this period of time, because we respect our organization enough to protect our reputation. If DOC doesn't have that kind of respect for their organization, hey, more power to them, they're accomplishing all that they set out to do. If they do...maybe they should try to choose brothers who wouldn't behave in such a manner, or at least work harder to educate them on self aware and intelligent behavior. I guess my point is that we don't live in a fair world, and for any other type of organization, this sort of anger towards the group wouldn't have occured. But anyone with half a brain could have anticipated the cause and effect of such a decision, and thus I really don't have much sympathy for them at all. Don't invite cameras to film your every move if you're going to throw a fit when other people don't appreciate your immature activities.

[texas*princess]

Originally posted by Educated
Well, I couldn't find the article.. but here is my take.

If I was a member of the UCSC Muslim American club, and it turned out two of the members happened to be terrorists, I would be PISSED if my local paper ran things like, "UCSC Muslim Club turns out to be terrorists!"

I would then probably write a letter to the local paper if my ENTIRE organization got kicked off campus because of what two people did. If the paper was making my org out to be bad guys based on the actions of a few, I WOULD express my disapproval.

GLO's and other clubs on campus are two entirely different worlds. Greeks are often held to a higher standard than everyone else...*especially* on campuses where there is already a very anti-greek sentiment.

Fraternities and sororities get suspended all the time, and most of the time it's because of what just a few members did...not what an entire chapter of 80 people did.

Here's a quote from sugarandspice replying to pretty much the same topic:

Unfortunate as it may be, we as Greeks are held to higher standards than the rest of the school population, and if a couple members of our group do something stupid, the whole group is punished. That may not be fair, but it's what always happens and we have to put up with it anyway. Furthermore, just because the group is a local fraternity doesn't mean it doesn't affect anybody else. We've already had UCSC Greeks come on here and say they've been feeling the anti-Greek backlash because of this incident. And as for the rest of us on other campuses, it's just one more incident that adds to the anti-Greek sentiment. Negative Greek press affects all of us.

edited to add bold print

[Educated]

Hmm.. How can a brother write in to the paper on April 26th regarding something that happened May 19th? Amazing. He should have gone to a tougher school.... See, that is a PERFECT example of someone taking a piece of information that has nothing to do with something, and using it derogitorily against DOC. And then others, like people on this board, form opinions and say OMG I CAN'T BELIEVE THEY ACT THAT WAY AND THEN COMPLAIN ABOUT IT. All because you give them an invalid piece of information.

Just like the media too. I know Matt and Casey.. and guess what. They didn't confress to shit.. They didn't even plead guilty. The university TOLD the papers they had the guys to quiet everyone down. Matt and Casey supposedly stepped up to take the pressure off DOC, which didn't work, but I would bet my dollar they get off scott free. We'll see.


Regarding the rest of your post, that is absolute horsesh*t. Your brother acted immaturely, and because you are held to a higher standard, you are suspended too?

You keep mentioning cameras, but what I am talking about has nothing to do with cameras. SIMPLE: Two students violated the UCSC Student handbook (And that law.. but that is the criminal side of this). They were found in violation, and the ENTIRE org was kicked off. If they made their decision BECAUSE of the cameras, well thats a well known thing called discrimination. UCSC loves that word.

Sign contracts or not. Put your image our that or not. WHATEVER. Supposedly MTV doesn't even want to use that footage, but we'll wait and see. You seem to be blinded by the fact that MTV was filming DOC, or that they are assholes, or that they signed whatever, but you are missing the fact that an entire HOUSE got the severest punishment for the actions of two.

If I was a brother who happened to be sleeping that night, or out of town, etc etc.. I would sue the balls off Chancellor Greenwood.

If two of your sisters, over the summer, got caught shoplifting and Macy's and the University said "lets not take a chance, there is a lot of attention on us already" and booted all of you, after ALL of your hard work, you're telling me that you would say "Oh well, I should have been more responsible when determining the character of my sisters..."

Right..

[kddani]

Originally posted by Educated


If two of your sisters, over the summer, got caught shoplifting and Macy's and the University said "lets not take a chance, there is a lot of attention on us already" and booted all of you, after ALL of your hard work, you're telling me that you would say "Oh well, I should have been more responsible when determining the character of my sisters..."

Right..

Ummmmm.... that's a TOTALLY different set of circumstances.
In your hypo, there's no TV camera following the girls because they are members of an organization. They weren't representing their organization when they got caught shoplifting.
The two members of DOC in question were representing their organization when they got caught. Of course it can be argued that they weren't representing DOC, but the fact is the MTV cameras were there BECAUSE they were a part of DOC. Had they not gotten caught on camera and acted outside the realm of DOC, then this may not be the same scenario. But they were, and they knew that they were, and that's why the uproar.
I hope that you can understand, even though you're not Greek, why all of us get so upset about this. When something like that makes headlines, it affects each and every greek out there. It makes us ALL look bad. This MTV Fraternity/Sorority Life has done a decent amount of damage to the reputations of greek life in the general public's eye. Hence why we also get upset when some other chapter of some org does something stupid that gets headlines- because it affects us all, on a daily basis.

[AYE FEE]

Educated -
You present an interesting point of view, but I have to agree with Texas Princess that GLO's are completely different from other campus organizations. Want to talk about discrimination? Perfect example. One student drinks himself into a coma one night while off-campus with non-fraternity friends. Next morning the headline reads "XYZ fraternity member dies of drinking related causes". A sorority member gets into a fight at a downtown bar with her ex's new girlfriend? "Member of ABC sorority arrested". A brother gets arrested for cocaine possession in his home, now rumor is that ZYX fraternity members do coke.

People (especially those not in Santa Cruz) don't neccesarily remember 'Matt Cox and Casey Loop', they hear and remember DOC fraternity members. That doesn't sound right to you? Two members can't be responsible for the entire reputation of the organization? Exactly. But you know what? That's an issue that greeks across the country deal with every day.

I asked you at one point if you were in a Greek Organization, but you never questioned me why. Hanging out, being close friends with, and partying with people is one thing but when you actually join a GLO, you are not simply adding a group to a list of associations you are a part of. You become a part of the house, and the house becomes a part of you.

You hear Greeks everywhere say 'I'm a Delta Gamma' or 'I'm a Sigma Chi', not 'I joined this organization called Delta Gamma'. You become a part of something bigger, and one of the risks is trusting your brothers and sisters to act in a way that you yourself want to be portrayed. In Alpha Phi, your membership can be put under review if you display 'character unbecoming of an Alpha Phi', because if one is acting in a way that makes the entire organization look bad, steps must be taken to protect the greater whole. When you join an org big or small, national or local, your reputation at the hands of others, and you will have to pay the consequences for another brother or sisters actions (for example, losing your chapter or being judged as a member of the 'coke house').

Discrimination? Yep, and it happens everyday.

[wishinhopin]

Educated: You are more than welcome to your own opinions, as I am to mine. But before you take my statements out of context, or respond to them so rudely, please consider how uneducated your previous post made you sound. This is a discussion forum, not a place to trade insults.

In reference to the newspaper article- nowhere did I say that DOC's fish incident was the instigating event for that particular article. I was simply stating the irony behind the situation- their members are so concerned with the perpetuation of false titles and stereotypes, and yet their members perpetuate these exact same things.

I don't particularly care what Matt and Casey did or did not admit to...if they were responsible for these actions, as all sources I have read have indicated, then I think they should be punished. If they aren't responsible, I truly hope that their good name is cleared.

Never did I say that I think it's right that the whole group is being blamed for this, only that I can understand the University's position on the matter. If it were any of my sisters, I would of course be upset about the injustice. But none of my sisters would have signed away their right to privacy, or invited the level of attention that DOC petitioned MTV for. By asking MTV to come here, DOC put themselves on the line, plain and simple. Of course UCSC isn't happy about this, of course UCSC is going to take the strongest possible action against them. Combine these facts with the rumors (true or untrue) that DOC caught that fish and then cooked and fed it to their pledges- now that's a whole fraternity activity.

We chose our sisters based on qualities that we consider to be important- intelligence, common sense, and respect for our organization among them. We have taken the time to all come to agreement on what sort of fun is appropriate, and what isn't. We've made our mistakes and learned our lesson, many many times. I hope DOC has learned theirs. It isn't my place to criticize their choice of members, or what activities they feel are appropriate to engage in. I'm trying to point out the others side of your story- that it isn't just some huge conspiracy against DOC. What they did had tangible consequences, and that's something they have had to deal with.

If DOC had not, for instance, worn the t shirts that they did, or if they didn't throw their booze cruise quarterly, or if their website didn't have a video of a bunch of drunk people acting stupid- maybe UCSC would have had more tolerance. But everyone knows that our school hates Greeks, and in order to balance that out, we don't have the option of necessarily being as wild and crazy as other schools might. Yes, it sucks. I wish all the time that our Greek system was more expansive, and our faculty and peers more open minded. But this doesn't seem to be the right battle to pick to try and fight against those injustices. No, it isn't fair: I've said that before and I'll say it again. If you want to change the system, by all means, go for it. But here's a suggestion: if Greeks aren't happy about the treatment they are receiving, or the higher standards they are set to, there are better ways of changing the status quo than by protesting the backlash when your brother does something illegal and moronic.

And to anticipate your next comment- Nope, I don't like DOC. My interactions with them have proved to me that as a group they aren't worth my personal time, and certainly not my sorority's time. On an individual level, some of the guys are cool, and some of them I truly dislike. I have found them to be rude, disrespectful, immature, and not holding the qualities that I respect in people. But those points aren't particularly relevant to this conversation. I'm posting on this thread because their actions necessarily affect me, and my sorority. I have spent too much time and effort to simply sit back and watch while DOC behaves the way that they have been. I can't stop them, and I know they don't care what I think at all. But I don't want anyone else to mistake my opinions, or those of UCSC greeks in general, to be in congruence with DOC. I dislike considering that people will watch them on MTV and think that other orgs on our campus are like that, or that they are what fraternities are all about. So I'm posting here, in an effort to at least know that my opinion has been voiced. I have tried VERY hard to be fair in my considerations of this situation, and to not let my personal opinions affect my judgement.

Educated, you seem to be taking my comments very personally- it's fine that you're friends with them, but try to step outside the box and look at this from some other points of view please.

[kddani]

HUGE applause to wishinhopin.
What a well written, soundly thought out post. Very calm, ladylike, professional, and profound! Go you!