Why are there no black members in Phi Kappa Psi? Another view

[Blackwatch]

Hello everyone,
First let me state that I am an African American Man who is a brother of Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity, Inc. an NPHC affiliated fraternity. I am an active alumni brother in one of over 150 alumni chapters in Alpha. As for inter racial discussions on diversity and "prejudice" this discussion has been better than most. I would just like to clarify some terms so that people can understand the viewpoint of the black family from the article and other members of NPHC orgs. on this thread.

When we talk of segregation and diversity, I see many people falling into a trap that Dr. King disccussed in his book Why We Can't Wait. He talked about the need for power intergration, not space integration. What was happening was that people misunderstood the notion of integration to think that black folks were trying to gain the ability to sit next to white people in social and job settings (shop with you, go to school with you, join your social clubs,etc). The real aim was to have the same access to opportunities and resources that those white institutions had. One example he specifically states is the issue with schools in our communities. Since Brown v. Board in 1954, Dr. King noted that the desegregation of our schools was causing blacks to loose control (power) of our schools. Black schools were being closed down and black students bused to white schools, the black teachers and administrators were loosing their jobs. The solution to the problem of power segregation and become space intergration, which never hit at the main issue of power integration.

I go through that brief history lesson to state that one black person in a NIC/PHC org doesn't mean a hill of beans. It would actually behoove us to discuss the disparity of resources on college campuses between the NIC/PHC orgs and the NPHC orgs as institutions. This is why I do not generally like talks of diversity, because it always boils down to how many white/black friends I have and never really hits at a deeper, more essential issue of power intergration. I attend grad school at the U of Missouri-Columbia and I tell you that the houses that these NIC-PHC orgs have here are down right amazing. Maid service, suites, manicured lawns, etc. All of the NPHC orgs are active on this yard and all of them struggle to donate a $500 scholarship. Now I know that most of that comes from the resources that the orgs themselves have, but the issue here is how does such a disparity along racial lines happen? Will this disparity change as a result of a mostly black pledge class? In a truly "integrated " society, the Alpha Phi Alpha House would be right next to the Kappa Alpha house, not just in location, but in size and trappings, but people don't like to think about that because that smacks of "Socialism" (heaven forbid)


Truth is that none of these organizations are racially restricted by policy so whoever wants to join whatever really isn't a big deal. If your group doesn't attract people of different ethnicities, and this is something you want to do, then you could do maybe one of two things
-Look at the population you want to attract and see what they like. Then see if your org could ever provide those things, if not then
- Decide that attracting other ethnicities can't be a big priority because in order to attract them in droves you would dilute the purpose and culture of your own org.

This may sound a little cold in this warm and fuzzy PC climate, but I am tired of us throwing around terms like "diversity" and only wanting to see people holding hands and singing, rather than looking at solutions to the real issues, like the power and resource inequality in this society heavily metered out along racial lines. If we want to talk about that, then I'm game. Otherwise, to truly respect the diversity of different orgs, allow them to be them. If a white person wants to join Alpha Phi Alpha, fine. If a black person wants to join Alpha Tau Omega, then fine. But don't think for a second that this makes a difference in the social order or culture in our society in general, nor our respective orgs specifically. If you were a black frat founded to uplift our community, be that. If you are a white frat that believes that Robert E. Lee is someone worth emulating, be that. In a truly diverse society, we would respect differences, not try to dilute them with tokenism, which really doesn't change anything.

Blackwatch!!!!!!

[MysticCat]

Thanks to those -- especially Shelacious, librasoul22, zchi2 and Blackwatch (sorry if I left anyone out) -- who are helping me, at least, understand a NPHC perspective on all of this better.

(And gphiangel624, apology accepted. Sorry if I got a little shrill.)

[CarolinaCutie]

I usually don't get involved with the racial discussions on GC, although I always read them with interest.

I guess what I'm curious to understand is... Why does it have to be about the "token" minority? On my campus, there are several NIC fraternities and NPC sororities with black members. When I see them on campus, I don't think, "Oh, there's XYZ trying to show the world how diverse they are!" It's just another fellow Greek. Is it possible *gasp* that the black men and women are there because they LIKED the brotherhood/sisterhood? Is it possible that the fraternity/sorority members picked them because they were fun and brought many good qualities to the table, instead of choosing them to add to their diversity?

And this is in the South...

Maybe it's because I'm white that I don't always think about race. (Not to imply that minorities are constantly thinking about race, but I would think it is more prevalent in their consciousness on a day-to-day basis). But to me, the membership of a black man in a "white" fraternity is not THAT big of a deal. I would feel sad if I found out that these men and women felt like they were tokens in their orgs.

So if anyone can help me out in understanding the huge significance of this, I'd like to understand.

And on the note of his family's reaction- I would like to think that my mother and father would support me in any activity they didn't perceive as harmful. If my mother behaved that way, acting like she was going to stop paying my tuition, it would make me feel like she didn't think I could make good choices by myself. What a blow to the self-esteem!

[damasa]

Originally posted by zchi2
First of all, I'm sorry but NPHC is different than the NPC/IFC. NPHC are service organizations and
NPC/IFC are social organizations. Maybe it was just on my campus (doubt it) but NPHC worked THROUGH OUT the year with community service projects and putting on educational programs for the campus. It wasn't just a once or twice a year thing. And there is a different expectation of NPC/IFC and other "minority" based GLO. When I talk to people who only know about NPC/IFC greeks and I tell them all of the things I do for my sorority since I have graduated from college, they ALWAYS ask "why are you still doing stuff for your sorority? Aren't you too old for that? But even before I tell members of NPHC, Asian GLO, Latin GLO, or Multicultural GLO (or people who were around those types of greeks) that I'm still involved, they ask me "So what are you doing for your organization?"

Again, you can't say it was racism. I REALLY don't think that his mother would be happy if he joined a black fraternity outside of the NPHC (there are a few). I know a lot of guys that joined non-NPHC black fraternities and they were harassed CONSTANTLY. Most of the time for black parents it's a NPHC vs Non-NPHC and not black vs. white greek.

You can't Imply that every member of an NPHC groups has made a lifetime commitment. Just like nobody can say that every member of the NPC or NIC can say has.

People take joining organizations like these differently. I know of people from both NPHC and NPC/NIC orgs that have made lifetime commitments. I also know of people from both orgs that seem to have joined simply for the "college experience."

But NPC/IFC does mean a lifetime commitment. Just take a look at the national/international headqurarters that run these groups. These headquarters aren't being run by undergrads.

[hoosier]

National Newspaper columnist Thomas Sowell (a black conservative) has an interesting column today in the Atlanta newspaper (try at accessatlanta.com) about the poor academic performance of black students at most levels. He supports, with data from recent books, that many of these just don't work hard, in part because they know that affirmative action will partially insure their success.

Send you comments to him, not me.

[ZTAMiami]

Originally posted by hoosier
National Newspaper columnist Thomas Sowell (a black conservative) has an interesting column today in the Atlanta newspaper (try at accessatlanta.com) about the poor academic performance of black students at most levels. He supports, with data from recent books, that many of these just don't work hard, in part because they know that affirmative action will partially insure their success.

Send you comments to him, not me.

Honestly Hoosier, what are your intentions when you post things like this? I want to know what relevance this has to the discussion above.

[zchi2]

Originally posted by damasa
You can't say that every member of an NPHC groups has made a lifetime commitment. Just like nobody can say that every member of the NPC or NIC can say has.

I'm really not trying to be petty but I never said that every member of a NPHC group has made a lifetime commitment. I actually never even said the words "lifetime commitment." I said there was a different EXPECTATION of what a member of the NPC/IFC does after graduation and what a member of a "minority" greek will do. I have been on GC too long not to know that EVERY greek organization wants their members to make a lifetime commitment.
You have to admit though that most people rushing NPC/IFC are just looking for the college experience. But personally, even in high school, whenever I heard people talked about the NPHC, they talked about mostly what people were doing for their sorority or fraternity past the college years. AGAIN, that is just my experience.

[damasa]

Originally posted by zchi2
I'm really not trying to be petty but I never said that every member of a NPHC group has made a lifetime commitment. I actually never even said the words "lifetime commitment." I said there was a different EXPECTATION of what a member of the NPC/IFC does after graduation and what a member of a "minority" greek will do. I have been on GC too long not to know that EVERY greek organization wants their members to make a lifetime commitment.
You have to admit though that most people rushing NPC/IFC are just looking for the college experience. But personally, even in high school, whenever I heard people talked about the NPHC, they talked about mostly what people were doing for their sorority or fraternity past the college years. AGAIN, that is just my experience.

I understand that this is your experience. I understand that every group even within the NPC/NIC have different expectations of their members. I know you aren't trying to be petty but I replied because you sounded to imply that members of NPHC continue to be a part of their organization after shcool and that most NPC/NIC members do not.

I disagree with you in havig to admit that most people that rush NPC/NIC groups are just looking for the college experience. Many of the greeks I personally know as well as alumni are involved far after college. They serve on alumni boards, hold alumni chapter meetings, establish alumni chapters. The thing is that most people do not see any of this. They do not see the efforts that these people make.

Much like members of NPC/NIC groups may not see the efforts of NPHC members long after college.

I will take this as a direct quote from a man in an NPHC group that I will leave w/o a name on this board. (I know this doesn't reflect the feelings off all members of NPHC groups.)

It was related to a community service project. We showed up one morning when mostly NPHC groups were involved and a few of the "WGLOS" came to help out in the philanthropy. One of the men from one of the NPHC groups turns and says to me "white boys trying to help out in the ghetto huh? We don't need your help and we don't want your help."

Yea, that made me feel real good.

My point in the above quote, organizations in the NPHC and NPC/NIC have a different scope on what they do as far as community service, philanthropy, etc. So you don't always see the efforts of either in the "after college life." They do exist.

Now back to the topic......

[Munchkin03]

Originally posted by hoosier
National Newspaper columnist Thomas Sowell (a black conservative) has an interesting column today in the Atlanta newspaper (try at accessatlanta.com) about the poor academic performance of black students at most levels. He supports, with data from recent books, that many of these just don't work hard, in part because they know that affirmative action will partially insure their success.

Send you comments to him, not me.

Why? This has NOTHING to do with the post at hand, it wasn't even related to any of the tangents!

[librasoul22]

Originally posted by Munchkin03
Why? This has NOTHING to do with the post at hand, it wasn't even related to any of the tangents!

Hoosier has proven time and time again his underlying prejudice. Best to just ignore his asinine comments.

damasa, I can see how it would suck to be treated that way at a community service project. And I know that people who automatically write you off don't necessarily deserve the benefit of the doubt. But possibly if you had explained the real reason for being there and trying to help out, you might have also shown him that not everybody is so concerned with APPEARING "diverse", and more concerned with actually acheiving it. It might have actually sparked an interesting discussion and taught HIM something he didn't know. I am not saying you guys are at fault for trying to help....not at all. All I am saying is that, believe me, it takes patience when dealing with close-minded people.

DeltaSig, the parents weren't RACIST for trying to dissuade their son from joing the org. That is not racism. Prejudiced, perhaps. Or maybe they were simply trying to shield their son from what they PERCEIVED was a situation where he would face worse prejudice? Who knows?

Edited cause I am a dork and don't pay close enough attention to who posts what...

[DeltaSigStan]

Originally posted by librasoul22

DeltaSigStan, the parents weren't RACIST for trying to dissuade their son from joing the org. That is not racism. Prejudiced, perhaps. Or maybe they were simply trying to shield their son from what they PERCEIVED was a situation where he would face worse prejudice? Who knows?

Whoa where'd that come from? I don't recall posting anything about the parents at all. Only thing I remember posting was the thing at the top of page 2 which didn't have anything to do with his folks.

[moe.ron]

None of my brothers in my chapter are token brothers. They are equal under our rules and regulation and have my eternal loyalty and brotherly love. We had a non discriminatory clause in our constitution since the 50s, ahead of the country. Talking to many old alumni, that clause nearly split the fraternity apart. But through brotherly love and standing side by side and remmembering the ritual, we became stronger.

[valpogal99]

Okay, so I had decided, like a few others, that I would stay out of the bantering of this thread, as it seemed to be getting a little off topic and heated... However, one thing that came up is a hot spot with me. NPC/NIC members do stay active and involved with their organizations. A post from page 2 (maybe 3) stated that most of the Alumni members of these groups didn't wear paraphernalia, SO WHAT. Wearing letters or other symbols of an organization doesn't make you active, it's what you do. On the other hand, how do you know how often someone wears a symbol of the organization. I have a necklace with a lion pendant that I wear at least twice a week (the lion is our mascot). Would everyone know that it represents my sorority, absolutely not. Does that mean I should tell everyone so they know I am proud of my continued involvement? Someone else pointed out that it NPC/NIC organizations where not service oriented. While we are defined as "Social" organizations, service is key component to most of the groups. As far as service projects outside of college, most Alumni members I know are very service-oriented. We participate in event with a variety of other organizations, most of the time without identifying ourselves as members of XYZ sorority/fraternity. Does that make our participation in those events any less important? I don't think so. Doing a good deed is doing a good deed - recognition isn't the reason to do it. I would say that most of the organizations represented in GC have a strong support of members who make lifetime commitments to them. I think that how we choose to display/act out our commitments is more of an individual decision than any thing else. I am proud to wear my letters, my badge, my symbols when helping the community (or even just hanging out). I am also proud to help the community while not wearing them. I am also proud to say I am an active Alumna of Alpha Delta Pi. Would you know that if you saw me on the street, probably not. But then again, what would it matter? Why should it affect you if I have made a lifetime commitment to my sorority, that is, unless I am wearing my letters? Come on, we all love our groups and we all show it in our own way. If you want to wear your organization’s symbols, please do. If not, then don't. It doesn't matter. What matters is what you bring to the organization in ways of action.

I hope I didn't offend anyone. This comment was not directed at any individual group or person. I have heard people from all groups at all levels (from Collegiates to Alumni from NPC to Locals and everyone in between) say that Alumni should be proud of the organization and wear things that show their affiliation. Again, for me, I like wearing my sorority things. I have sisters that feel pressure at their work and with other friends to not wear them. I don't think they are bad people for not wearing them. They are still proud of the group and are involved in Alumnae activities. I just needed to vent and this seemed like the thing that set me off... today.

[librasoul22]

Originally posted by DeltaSigStan
Whoa where'd that come from? I don't recall posting anything about the parents at all. Only thing I remember posting was the thing at the top of page 2 which didn't have anything to do with his folks.

I apologize and I edited my post...I meant DeltaSig, who posted this:

Just read this thread today, and let me tell you I'm kind of upset.
First off me being a MINORITY in a historically WHITE fraternity as some would say, I feel kind of bad for this young man. He kind of was like most young men going to college they meet new people, have new experiences and isn't that what college is all about. He could have just as good an experience in a NIC fraternity than in a traditionally african-american fraternity and vice versa. Who knows because now he will never have that opportunity. I don't think what his mother did was appropriate especially for a parent. That's absurd, she had the right to be dissatisfied but not to threaten her own son that's just ignorant. When I first got to college I looked at the predominately Latino Greeks on campus and even rushed and found out it did not fit who I was. I joined DeltaSig out of comfort and what I felt was best for me. I hate it when people try to ASSUME what they feel is best for others, let people live their lives the way they want, its a free country for God's Sake, FREE that's why we have 250,000 servicemen and women in the middle east at this time. I also don't understand the arguement that it was technically o.k. for the family to be prejudice, yeah PREJUDICE against their young mans decision and then have the audacity to corner him with only joining a Black Fraternity. That's racism I don't care how u look at it. And for everyone's info some of my good friends are in historically black fraternities (A phi A, Kappa) and they even told me that the situation was pretty messed up, but they also agreed that the mother was acting out in prejudice. Sorry y'all I'm pist

[cash78mere]

Originally posted by librasoul22

cash78mere, it is not that simple. It is usually pretty obvious when a person is chosen simply to fill a quota. When an org is genuinely trying to "diversify" and promote pluralism at the same time, it defintely shows.

point taken.

however, it doesn't seem like this chapter, from what has been written, was out to recruit their token member.

this reminds me of friends i have whose parents would ONLY let them go to state schools because they were cheaper/closer/better than the school that they really wanted to go to. their parents wouldn't pay for them to go to a (usually) better school because of their own idiocy.

just let people decide for THEMSELVES what is best for them.