We are going to war

[Sistermadly]

Originally posted by texas*princess
Protests on the war on Iraq are all over the news [and on college campuses] which got me wondering...

do all the protests make a difference?

I think the decision was made long ago, and news will be coming out about it in no time at all.

I think protests help people feel a sense of accomplishment, of feeling like they've let their voices be heard, and that they've done their part to express their opposition. Some folks said that it made a difference in Vietnam (but I also think that the fact that Vietnam was the first "televised" war had something to do with that). As to whether it'll make a difference here, only time will tell, especially if the protests continue and get larger as the war progresses.

[James]

Along the lines of what you are saying about the media . . .

I think the people in the government learned the lesson. If you think about it, the media accepted an unprecedented amount of censorship during Desert Storm. It was rather frightening.

Smart bombs only accounted for less than 7 percent of the munitions expended. But its all we saw on TV.

I know people that listened to the BBC just to get "real" information lol.

Originally posted by Sistermadly


I think the decision was made long ago, and news will be coming out about it in no time at all.

I think protests help people feel a sense of accomplishment, of feeling like they've let their voices be heard, and that they've done their part to express their opposition. Some folks said that it made a difference in Vietnam (but I also think that the fact that Vietnam was the first "televised" war had something to do with that). As to whether it'll make a difference here, only time will tell, especially if the protests continue and get larger as the war progresses.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by Sistermadly
Some folks said that it made a difference in Vietnam (but I also think that the fact that Vietnam was the first "televised" war had something to do with that). As to whether it'll make a difference here, only time will tell, especially if the protests continue and get larger as the war progresses.

Your point about the first "TV War" is well documented and well taken. It was also that massive peace demonstrations were televised. Both made a difference. According to the documentaries after the fact, the demonstrations -- particular the TV coverage gave Presidents Nixon and Johnson fits.

Edited several hours later after watching a PBS program on folk songs, and also seeing news converage of peace demonstrations literally around the world. It sure reminded me of many of the folk/rock anti-war anthems of the 60's. I don't know, maybe they also had something to do with changing public opinion?

The quotation may not be exact, but is close enough, I think.

"The Eastern World, it is explodin'
Violence Flaring, Bulletts loadin'
Your old enough to kill, but not for votin'
You don't believe in war, then what's that gun you're totin'
And even the Jordan River has bodies afloatin'
But you tell me, over and over and over again,
That you don't believe we're on the Eve Of Destruction"

Sung by Barry McGuire

[justamom]

I've had so many of those songs playing in my mind lately. Eve of Destruction is truly an ominous one. I just can't get them out of my mind!

I was just a few years off to feel the full impact of Viet Nam, but what I DID see, hear and read about it haunts me.
The young men I met after it was over were never free from their experience. It became a dark part of them and few would even speak of it. The drugs they had-especially grass-were so common, it was like a part of their daily routine. I only know what a few told me. Maybe it wasn't that prolific. Yet, they felt they NEEDED them to dull their fear and their conscience.
The wounds-mental and physical-were so deep that many couldn't figure out how to crawl out of the "funk". And these were the "lucky" ones? ...the survivors?

Arya-You are right, apathy IS an enemy (Communist Manifesto) but I can only pray we exhaust every avenue before we move forward.
http://www.geocities.com/tvshowtheme...lyLawSong.html

WAR- Whitfield &Stong excerpts (Back to you Delt Alum)
War. huh! Yeah!
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothin'! Uh huh uh hu-uh.

Ahhh war.
I despise, cause it means destruction of innocent life.
War means tears to thousands of mothers' eyes,
when their sons go off to fight and lose their lives.

War.
It ain't nothin' but a heart breaker.
War.
Friend only, to the undertaker.

Ahhh war.
is an enemy to all mankind.
The thought of war blows my mind.
War has caused unrest within the younger generation.
Induction, then destruction. Who wants to die?

Ahhh war.
has shattered, many a young man's dreams.
Made him disabled, bitter and mean.
Life is but too short and precious,
it's been fighting wars each day.
War can't give life, it can only take it away..

Peace, love and understanding, tell me
Is there no place for them today?
They say we must fight, to keep our freedom,
but Lord knows there's got to be a better way...

War. huh! Good God now, huh!
What is it good for?
Stand up and shout it. nothin'!

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by KillarneyRose
**coding prevents quoting**

To explain the "professional soldiers" bit - yeah, you pretty much got it. I'm stating that this isn't their primary profession - I didn't say "The US reservists are poorly trained", simply that they are mostly of the 'weekend warrior' variety. That's not intended as a cut on the reservests - I think it's pretty honorable, and extremely brave when called upon, to do what they do - but they're not the freaking special forces here, they are the milkman and your neighbor and my uncle. So that's why I pray for them in particular.

As far as the semantics of "our interests" - that is an argument solely due to the nature of using the possessive 'our', and making it universal. Many would argue against any sort of war out of principle, and many would argue against reliance on fossil fuels period . . . these groups certainly don't have much in the way of interests being protected in a war with Iraq, no? While I don't necessarily disagree with military action against Iraq, sometimes I think we bandy about terms too freely, and assume that the interests of the government line up directly with those of Alexander Hamilton's mythical "the people".

And before the requisite "LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT CHEESEDICK!" comes out, I'm a card-carrying Republican, I support the party, I hate poor people as much as the next white suburbanite - I just take umbrage with this particular point.

[DeltAlum]

________________
posted by justamom...
Back to you DeltAlum

I won't quote Pete Seegers "Where Have All the Flowers Gone," or "Cruel War," (PP&M?) or even "Ballad of the Green Berets" by S/Sgt Barry Sadler -- although the old radio guy in me really wants to.

I will just note what I think is one of the most distressing (and beautiful at the same time) lines from Paul Simon and Art Garfunkle's "Scarborough Fair:"

"Generals order their soldiers to kill,
and to gather it all,
and fight for a cause they have long ago forgotten,"

Overall, a worrisome thought.

(The second line may not be an exact quote)

Or, perhaps the best known, "All we are saying, is give Peace a chance."

[Sistermadly]

Originally posted by James
Along the lines of what you are saying about the media . . .

I think the people in the government learned the lesson. If you think about it, the media accepted an unprecedented amount of censorship during Desert Storm. It was rather frightening.

That's what I was hinting at, James. I was just being willfully obtuse. Heh.

And I watch the CBC for the same reason... I stopped watching CNN a long time ago.

[Sistermadly]

Originally posted by DeltAlum

Edited several hours later after watching a PBS program on folk songs, and also seeing news converage of peace demonstrations literally around the world. It sure reminded me of many of the folk/rock anti-war anthems of the 60's. I don't know, maybe they also had something to do with changing public opinion?

I don't know if it's a direct cause/effect situation, but I do know that in times of political dissent/distress, that musicians often take a more political stance, and therefore, the more political messages "trickle down" to Jane and Joe Middle America. People who think nothing of turning off the TV news, or who won't pick up a newspaper will listen to music; if the dissent is in the music, they'll pick it up eventually.

Or that's just my crack-pot theory.

[AXO Alum]

Here is something that really made me some kind of mad...I saw fliers posted all over campus (extremely liberal campus by the way) saying:

"Come join our anti-war protest to help protect the civil liberties of the Iraqi people!"

Okay - last time I checked....WHAT civil liberties?!

You want to know what makes me SICK -- seeing the televised reaction of the Iraqi people on TV after 9/11 -- seeing them cheer, party, burn our flag, etc. because they knew that we were caught off guard and that PEOPLE were dead. They didn't bother to stop and say "great the Americans are dead...gee though I'm really sorry that Canadians, Brits, and others got killed though!" -- NO - they were just happy that people were DEAD on American soil.

My brother's ship left two weeks ago. I pray for him and all our troops every day -- I also pray for George W. Bush -- because he has what it takes to stand up and say NO MORE -- regardless of what the "politically correct" standpoint would be.

As for the "wonderful" celebrities who are participating in the "Let's pretend that there are not people in this world who wouldn't jump at the chance to blow America off the map" protests, all I have to say is....WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE? I remember so many saying "If GWB wins then I'm moving out of the country" -- maybe they should take their cause over to Iraq, N. Korea, etc. and tell them that they are going to fight for them. Let's see how long they last there.

I'm just plain MAD about a lot of things -- I'm mad that people are so blind to reality. They can face that the reality of war is a horrible thing, but they can't face the reality that there is NO peace when you have CRAZY people with nuclear weapons and other weapons of mass destruction on the loose! Why was 9/11 such a complete surprise? Because we made the mistake of letting our guard down and we have suffered for it.

[justamom]

AXO Alum-I'm just plain MAD about a lot of things -- I'm mad that people are so blind to reality. They can face that the reality of war is a horrible thing, but they can't face the reality that there is NO peace when you have CRAZY people with nuclear weapons and other weapons of mass destruction on the loose! Why was 9/11 such a complete surprise? Because we made the mistake of letting our guard down and we have suffered for it.

I agree, especially about "...there is NO peace. I don't think there ever will be again...in the historical sense. We will all have to redefine what "peace" means in a world where any fanatic can get his hands on weapons or carries his ideology to the extreme.

Though it is unlikely, I'm praying for Sadam to be forced into exile.
As far as N. Korea, I think those who share their backyard need to lead that fight and let us "assist" for a change.

Listening to the latest commentary, the question has been posed-
Is it time for the US to put down their stick and retire from the role of world protector?

AXO Alum-God keep your brother safe.
Celebrities can all GTH!
Those citizens who do back us in Iraq can't be televised for fear of personal harm or harm to their family.
Afghanistan is still a hot spot.
It is the UN that needs to take a stance-NOW-as it stands, they are impotent.
I would really like to know whose in bed with who, but political science and analysis was never my strong suit.

[Lady Pi Phi]

Originally posted by AXO Alum
...there is NO peace when you have CRAZY people with nuclear weapons and other weapons of mass destruction on the loose!

While I have stayed out of this thread. I have my own opinions on this issue and I rather not get into an argument with anyone. Besides, that is not what this thread is about. I do pray for the soldiers...all soldiers and their loved ones because no one wants to see anyone killed especially a loved one.

I just have a comment/question. Crazy? The US is just as crazy as any nation. Why is it okay for the US to have nuclear weapons but no any other nation?

[AlphaSigOU]

Originally posted by ilovemyglo
...But to say that all of the world hates America, doubt it- jealousy is mistaken for hate a lot.

Right on the money! Couldn't have said it any better myself.

[AlphaSigOU]

Originally posted by Lady Pi Phi
I just have a comment/question. Crazy? The US is just as crazy as any nation. Why is it okay for the US to have nuclear weapons but no any other nation?

Good question there, Lady Pi Phi. At least we have so many safeguards and protections to prevent the accidental or unauthorized release of nukes.

Some of these other countries who do have the nuclear genie in their possession are either 1.) hurting for hard cash (Russia), 2.) looking for an excuse to sell a ready-made nuke to the highest bidder, especially terrorists, and 3) it makes for a great weapon of intimidation -- lraq and N. Korea are but two countries that are flexing their nuclear sword of Damocles.

In the US, the President is the only one authorized to release nuclear weapons to the military, and employed through a highly classified war plan known as the SIOP (Single Integrated Operational Plan, pronounced 'psy-op') Anywhere where nuclear weapons are to be stored, used, launched, dropped etc, has a minimum 'two-person concept'; no one person can arm or launch a nuke.

One example: the keys that begin the launch of a Minuteman ICBM are more than ten feet apart in the launch control center. Both keys must be turned simultaneously by the two officers. This is only one 'launch vote'. A second key turn and 'vote' from another launch control center commits the missiles to launch, based on certain factors already programmed by the SIOP. On the contrary, if the second control center feels that the first is attempting an unauthorized launch, they can send an 'inhibit' command that stops the process.

Up until recently, we had a 'no first use' policy on using nukes. That appears to have changed, ever since the President mentioned that the US reserves the right to use any means at its disposal, in retaliation for using weapons of mass destruction. (The New York Post put it out in language the every day reader could understand: "US TO SADDAM: WE'LL NUKE YOU".

(P.S.: Mr. President, you pronounce the word 'noo-clear' and not 'nu-cu-lar' like some West Texas hayseed )

[Munchkin03]

Originally posted by Lady Pi Phi
I just have a comment/question. Crazy? The US is just as crazy as any nation. Why is it okay for the US to have nuclear weapons but no any other nation?

That's one of the best questions I've seen posted on this thread. I've wondered that myself, especially since we're the only one in history to use nuclear warfare...not once, but twice. AlphaSigOU brought up a lot of points that I wasn't aware of. I just wish he would pronounce the word "nuclear" right, too.

Not every Iraqi was celebrating on September 11...to say that because ONE group of people (there could have been more, we don't know) was celebrating is as preposterous as saying that all Americans were sitting in front of their TVs crying (because I know for a fact that all Americans were NOT devastated). Because of that one group, Iraqis don't have civil liberties?

I wholeheartedly support the troops forced to fight in this war, despite the fact that I don't support the war nor do I support the man in charge of this whole deal. None of them wants to be there, it is their job and duty to this country--and they are serving valiantly and we should be proud of them.

[AlphaSigOU]

Originally posted by Munchkin03
That's one of the best questions I've seen posted on this thread. I've wondered that myself, especially since we're the only one in history to use nuclear warfare...not once, but twice. AlphaSigOU brought up a lot of points that I wasn't aware of. I just wish he would pronounce the word "nuclear" right, too.

Whoops! Did I mispronounce it? Thanks for the heads-up.

Not every Iraqi was celebrating on September 11...to say that because ONE group of people (there could have been more, we don't know) was celebrating is as preposterous as saying that all Americans were sitting in front of their TVs crying (because I know for a fact that all Americans were devastated). Because of that one group, Iraqis don't have civil liberties?

Unfortunately, that's the misinformation that many Americans are led to believe.

I wholeheartedly support the troops forced to fight in this war, despite the fact that I don't support the war nor do I support the man in charge of this whole deal. None of them wants to be there, it is their job and duty to this country--and they are serving valiantly and we should be proud of them.

I don't particularly like getting into a war unless we have a very clear-cut objective. We're rushing headlong into the abyss if we're not careful. Those empty shells found by UNSCOM may have been a plant to incite the drums of war in America by the Iraqis.

Both sides are itching for an a**-kicking contest, and neither side is giving up ground. Get ready for a knock-down-drag out fight in the streets of Baghdad -- I hope all that MOUT (Military Operations in Urban Terrain -- a fancy name for house-to-house combat) training our guys have gone through help them out - we certainly don't need another Mogadishu on our hands.

Mobile 'Scud'-busting (by A-10s and F-16s) didn't work very well in '91. (You had to catch 'em just at the point they were about to launch to wipe 'em out.) Maybe our improved Patriot missiles can do a better job. But they're not a cure-all either.

My thoughts and prayers to the men and women serving our country in this time of crisis.