Hazing is good

[KSIGTAZ]

N2
You wrote the same bs in the topic:Anti-hazing has Gone Out of Control. Since you didn't read my last response I'll put here again for you.

I am not going to questions your loyalty or dedication to your fraternity. It does some like your questioning the loyalty and dedication of many others. Am I going to enter your world full of fuzzy pc bullshit? Maybe. I am disgusted by your short sightedness. I might be wrong but this is what I read from that posting.

You were big on athletics and 'Winning is everything, losing is nothing" I personally idn't want to join a cookie cutter fraternity. I guess their intelligence, background, who they are, and what they can contribute means nothing at all. Hell as long as they can throw a football, catch a pass, rush them all.

You would die for your brothers and they are now your wifes bother in laws. Yet many of your pledge brothers youy have not seen in years. Words are cheap what are you excuses for not seeing these "brothers" you have this "special" bond none of us can understand. Don't give me that crap they moved away or maybe they are to busy. Excuses are like a$$holes everyone has one. My brothers and I didn't have be taken to the "edge". I still get together with my pledge brothers on a regular basis and yes I am an alumn.

If your part of a national fraternity why don't you take a look at your mission statement. Do you know what a mission statement is? Does it tell you to haze or take your pledges to the edge. I doubt it.
Maybe your following the mistakes of those before you and are not inteligent or creative enough to promote brotherhood in other ways.

You must go to the ocean to smell it. "Try to explain to someone to who has never seen it. It cannot be done." Your right it cannot be done by someone like you. Your to short sighted, don't have the imagination, or to interested in playing catch to understand it can be done.

I don't share the level your accustome to, I surpass it and everyday I strive to improve upon that.

You didn't respond last time and I doubt you will respond this time.

[AXPAlum]

Hello Everyone, it's been a while since I last posted, and this topic just caught my eye..

To say hazing is good or bad overall is a real hard one to answer. I don't know about all the different types of hazing going on out there, and I am not an expert on this subject. I can say one thing for sure - if you or someone you know is in a dangerous pledge program, do whatever you can to stop it. I've never been one to say a good old scavenger hunt or camping trip was hazing, but that always included the brotherhood. Maybe that's where the definition becomes "hazy" Is it against the law if the brothers and pledges are involved in the activities together? I mean if it's a big brother - little brother football game, which I have done myself, we never called it hazing.

Well, no one hear is going to convince everyone that hazing is good or bad, so just take some friendly advice. Treat others as you would like to be treated. Don't do anything you are not comfortable with, and graduate on time. Take care, later.

- AXP Alum

[N2]

KSIGTAZ,

Winning is everything. They spent enormous amounts of money too erect scoreboards.
If it does not matter who wins, why keep the score. I’m not limiting it to the field either.
While you are at work, home, your credit report, your 401k, GPA, or the level of your education. It is all a score and it’s competitive. Winning is a habit! So is loosing. My statement goes to the attitude we are striving to recruit. My Fraternity is not for everyone, probably not for most and never will be. As I said in a previous post, my chapter places many hours in the decision even to issue a bid. We spend 3-4 hours a night for a week in committee and then 12-16 hours in lockdown on the final day until the decisions are made. Generally, we bid 25 to 40% of those requesting. We operate in an open system. My chapter could not exist in a closed bidding system. I believe that the closed bidding system limits the natural selection of the perspectives’ as well as the chapters. I understand the purpose of it, I just do not agree with it. It is similar to affirmative action.

As too seeing my Brothers, I did not say pledge Brothers, I said “I would die for my Brothers still today, many of whom I have not seen in years.” I stand by this. Since I pledged there have been 397 brothers. I do not see them all every year. I do see most of the actives from my undergrad years, every year. Our alumni do not just walk away into the sunset. They mentor the new Brothers during their undergraduate career and support the pledges during their “education”. Being a Brother in my chapter is a lifelong commitment. Since 1986, NO brother of my chapter has had to withdraw from college purely for financial reasons. Our alumni will never again allow an undergrad Brother to fall by the wayside. Today, we have 17 Brothers in tuition repayment and 2 actives on tuition subsidy. To this day, I still turn to my mentors for advice and guidance. Yes, there are those who fail to live up to the expectations and they are dealt with harshly. Even in a traditional family there are black sheep. If you fail too trim the fat, you get lazy and sloppy. The scoreboard is still running.

No, I do not believe that you can explain the ocean to someone who has never seen it. It is just an analogy. I cannot completely explain my experiences and expectations of brotherhood to you or anyone else. Brotherhood in my chapter is more than a word. It has to become part of your soul. My chapter over the years has been very successful in maintaining the standards that the Alumni demand. A large part of the success is due the mentoring programs that were instituted prior to my pledge period. The vision of my chapter fathers has proven to be crystal. One of my duties is to evaluate the pledge period. After initiation, I sit down with every new Brother and discuss his impressions, views, lessons, and experiences. Then I meet them as a group and discuss their newfound view of Brotherhood. I mentioned in another post that they all shed tears when recalling their pledge period and I got blasted from someone for making a pledge cry. They are tears of joy, Brotherhood and love, not of fear. We have changed some of the things we do over the years, but not much. If a tactic does not produce the desired response then we alter or change it. Everything we do during our pledge period is scripted for purpose. A new Brother is not allowed to take part in “education” of pledges his first term as a active. He simply observes. The second time he is allowed to participate, but not Lead and must have a senior Brother with him at all times. Only certain Brothers may Lead, they earn the title and must maintain it. No “education” may take place without a Lead. This accountability and mentoring is what stabilizes my chapter. I see wild swings in other chapters on my college’s campus. Their personalities over the years swings the full scale and sometimes returns. Others never have. The personality of my chapter slides very little.
You said, “I don't share the level your accustomed to, I surpass it and everyday I strive to improve upon that.”
I agree that we don’t share the same level of Brotherhood. We probably don’t even share the same definition of “Brotherhood” and that’s fine. I don’t degrade you for your beliefs and if you truly strive to improve it, then I congratulate you.
I have but one life to live, one life to give, and one score to keep.

[Monique]

I have to agree with pretty poodle on this one. If you want to get hazed, you will get hazed. If you don't won't to, You won't. It's as simple as 123. YOU ARE THE MASTER OF YOUR DESTINY.

[BaCarDi]

The worst thing about this board is all the lying that goes on. Yes, it is against all fraternities and sororities bylaws to haze, but lets face it, it happens. I joined a fraternity and im glad the way our pledging program was designed because like someone stated, it brought our whole pledge class together. We lost a few, but if they couldnt handle it because they were weak, im glad we found that out before they got in because i dont want just any scumb weakling in my fraternity. And i know now ur gonna say "ur a loser for wanting to belong to them and therefore put up with pledging"...well NO!!! I knew them before pleding and i liked the brothers that i knew. If pledging didnt exist anybody would half-heartedly join a fraternity or sorority without even wanting to be in it. After my class was done...we werent humiliated or anything, we were proud and WE knew that we wanted to be a part of this brotherhood and THEY did as well. Nothing in life comes easy and if it does, it's not worth much...remember that.

[DeltAlum]

BaCarDi,

Are you talking about pledging or hazing?

There's a huge difference. Pledging is a process we all go/went through.

Hazing is not just against fraternity/sorority rules -- it's against the law.

[amycat412]

Originally posted by DeltAlum:
BaCarDi,

Are you talking about pledging or hazing?

There's a huge difference. Pledging is a process we all go/went through.

Hazing is not just against fraternity/sorority rules -- it's against the law.

I don't think its any coincidence that BaCarDi just registered the day of this post and has made no other posts. Seems we may have another infiltrator in our midst.

[N2]

amycat412,

I suppose then that the first day you posted here you were an infiltrator?

DeltAlum,

If the Delt is "Delta Chi", then you still have at least one chapter that subscribes to the hazing belief. I am not a Delta Chi. But I am very close to the DC reps on my Alumni IFC and we have compared some "notes" on pledge education.

I would put the Brotherhood of any chapter that has a defined and purposeful education program up against say, a LCA, who does not even use the word "pledge". Now that is just a club with Greek letters.

BaCarDi,

As usual, you get what you pay for. A very wise man once told me, "Don't ever be afraid to buy the very best. You will always be happy with it."

[DeltAlum]

N2,

"Delt" is Delta Tau Delta. And I suspect we have some backward chapters somewhere who still haze. When we find them, we close them down.

DeltAlum

[Corbin Dallas]

Originally posted by N2:
I would put the Brotherhood of any chapter that has a defined and purposeful education program up against say, a LCA, who does not even use the word "pledge". Now that is just a club with Greek letters.

I have to disagree here. First, I'm sure you could find at least one, and probably several more, chapter of ANY fraternity that is just "a club with Greek letters." And secondly, just because we don't feel like breaking the law to "bring our brothers together" doesn't make us a club with Greek letters. You can't just walk into one of our chapter meetings, sign your name and be a brother. You have to be selected by the brothers. You have to go through the AM period, and you have to go through ritual. And big deal if we don't use the word pledge. It was gotten rid of because of the negative connotation people like you give it, so you can thank yourself for LCA getting rid of the word pledge. People like you ruined it.

------------------
Steve Corbin
Lambda Chi Alpha
Theta Kappa Chapter
Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech.

[amycat412]

Originally posted by N2:
amycat412,

I suppose then that the first day you posted here you were an infiltrator?

No, but I posted positive messages not negative ones promoting stereotypes the NPC/NIC/NPHC have been working towards changing as poster BaCarDi has. All I ask is that people be respectful of the forum and community in which they post.

BaCarDi is right about one thing-- Nothing good comes easy. And IMHO, hazing is the actives taking the easy way out. Fostering respect and love and friendship, fostering a FRATERNITY amongst members, that is what is hard work.

[This message has been edited by amycat412 (edited March 14, 2001).]

[mgdzkm433]

these threads make me laugh, basically because hazing is becoming more and more a hush hush thing due to risk management and hazing education throughout the country.

The reason I laugh is because it's only a matter of time before the chapters that haze get caught and are either brought up on charges--because it IS illegal, or their charter is taken away.

It's pretty sad when people feel they have to resort to illegal activity to have 'fun'.

[BaCarDi]

You guys can say whatever u want, but i know that i have more respect for someone who went through something and worked hard for it rather than just was given his letters. And by NO means do we at any time endanger our pledges or touch them, but they do have to put an effort and work hard to become a brother. If they cant handle it, we have other fraternities that will take them whose pledge program is much easier and suited for their weakness.

[N2]

BaCarDi,

Glad to see someone else here trying to keep a Brotherly perspective on things.

[AlphaXiGirl]

I always find it so interesting that the people that want to brag about how strong their brotherhood/sisterhood is because of hazing and how their membership means so much more to them because they were hazed are never proud enough of their letters to tell us the name of their organization.

Those advocates of hazing tend to talk about the strong versus the weak... I contend that it takes a much stronger chapter to not give in to the temptation to haze and a much stronger new member to stand up against those that attempt to haze.

But then again, I wasn't hazed so I must not know the TRUE value of Greek Membership.

[This message has been edited by AlphaXiGirl (edited April 12, 2001).]