Sigma Alpha Epsilon Announces Historic Change for membership experience

[SAEalumnus]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

One question that I'm hoping an SAE can answer, but slap my hand if I'm too close to membership selection:

How difficult is it, comparatively, to remove a pledge? Does the fact that someone has been initiated make it much harder to throw them out of your chapter?

My experience on the NPC side has been that it takes a *lot* to get rid of an NM, and that most orgs don't let chapters make that decision on their own (i.e. it has to be run up the volunteer alumnae chain), so initiating early wouldn't make a huge difference in terms of kicking someone out.

Of course, if a chapter really wants to get rid of someone, they pressure her to leave "voluntarily," but I am curious how much the early initiation matters on this issue alone.

Prior to its recent repeal, Section 47C1 of our national Fraternity Laws provided that a vote of 1/4 of those eligible to vote was sufficient to rescind a pledgeship. If doing so was warranted, it was relatively easy to accomplish.

[badgeguy]

If any society wants to get away from a hazing culture, is to call it what it really is, bullying.

Plain and simple, kids are hazed or bullied in high school, maybe even elementary or middle school. They then go on to college and are either "hazed" or bullied, or they become the person who does the bullying or hazing.

Hazing is a LEARNED trait...... It will take time, but we have to enforce acceptable behavior early in schools in order for those good people to come to college and stop it.

No amount of laws or charter withdraws will ever stop people from doing this. And as everyone has seen already, it's not just "fraternities" that haze, but many organizations have this in their midsts.....change the culture and you'll lower or eliminate hazing, or bullying as it really is.

[Sen's Revenge]

Originally Posted by badgeguy

If any society wants to get away from a hazing culture, is to call it what it really is, bullying.

Plain and simple, kids are hazed or bullied in high school, maybe even elementary or middle school. They then go on to college and are either "hazed" or bullied, or they become the person who does the bullying or hazing.

Hazing is a LEARNED trait...... It will take time, but we have to enforce acceptable behavior early in schools in order for those good people to come to college and stop it.

No amount of laws or charter withdraws will ever stop people from doing this. And as everyone has seen already, it's not just "fraternities" that haze, but many organizations have this in their midsts.....change the culture and you'll lower or eliminate hazing, or bullying as it really is.

I agree with most of what you're saying. I've researched this an I've spoken about the Bullying-to-Hazing Pipeline extensively.

But bullying and hazing are not synonymous. If you try to conflate them, it undermines both.

But if you do indeed eliminate bullying at the middle and high school levels, you have created a generation of youth who will not tolerate hazing.

[Griffins&Quills]

Eliminating pledging =/= eliminating hazing.

[BlueOwl]

I will reiterate that I am NEVER supportive of activities that could be physically harmful or deeply humiliating.

But....I still maintain that some pledge activities, be they silly, useless, or otherwise, can and DO build bonds between pledge groups and also with the older members. I do feel that there needs to be some sort of right of passage. I think that it is not reasonable to initiate in four days! That is simply not enough time for a chapter to fully evaluate the potential member, nor is it enough time for the potential member to truly know if SAE, or greek life in general, is for him!
I would support more mandatory and on-going education regarding safe practices within chapters.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by BlueOwl

I will reiterate that I am NEVER supportive of activities that could be physically harmful or deeply humiliating.

But....I still maintain that some pledge activities, be they silly, useless, or otherwise, can and DO build bonds between pledge groups and also with the older members. I do feel that there needs to be some sort of right of passage. I think that it is not reasonable to initiate in four days! That is simply not enough time for a chapter to fully evaluate the potential member, nor is it enough time for the potential member to truly know if SAE, or greek life in general, is for him!
I would support more mandatory and on-going education regarding safe practices within chapters.

The issue that often comes up in GC hazing threads is when pledge activities become physically harmful or deeply humiliating. Trust, there is no consensus regarding where the line should be drawn. It varies by GLO cultures, traditions, individual limitations, and so forth. That also speaks to my comments in the "sadly odd" thread.

/lane swerve

[badgeguy]

Originally Posted by BlueOwl

I will reiterate that I am NEVER supportive of activities that could be physically harmful or deeply humiliating.

But....I still maintain that some pledge activities, be they silly, useless, or otherwise, can and DO build bonds between pledge groups and also with the older members. I do feel that there needs to be some sort of right of passage. I think that it is not reasonable to initiate in four days! That is simply not enough time for a chapter to fully evaluate the potential member, nor is it enough time for the potential member to truly know if SAE, or greek life in general, is for him!
I would support more mandatory and on-going education regarding safe practices within chapters.

History would seem to prove otherwise.....
SAE was founded in 1856, right? How many days did it take back then to initiate someone? How long did the founders take to "evaluate" potential members? And new chapters?

[DEVODUDE]

Here is another media cover from Denver TV news about the SAE pledge Ban.....

http://kdvr.com/2014/03/09/one-of-na...bans-pledging/

[SAEalumnus]

Originally Posted by badgeguy

History would seem to prove otherwise.....
SAE was founded in 1856, right? How many days did it take back then to initiate someone? How long did the founders take to "evaluate" potential members? And new chapters?

The first "bid" offered by our Founders was given to Newton Nash Clements (Alabama 1858), who was initiated a week after accepting it. The True Gentleman Experience is a bit more aggressive at a mandatory maximum of four days, but is otherwise historically consistent. The establishment of new chapters was similarly expedient, though I wonder whether the Supreme Council will likewise radically shorten the chartering process (I suspect a double standard will prevail).

[itb2a]

Originally Posted by SAEalumnus

The first "bid" offered by our Founders was given to Newton Nash Clements (Alabama 1858), who was initiated a week after accepting it. The True Gentleman Experience is a bit more aggressive at a mandatory maximum of four days, but is otherwise historically consistent. The establishment of new chapters was similarly expedient, though I wonder whether the Supreme Council will likewise radically shorten the chartering process (I suspect a double standard will prevail).

SAEalumnus:

Wasn't that because your Founders already knew him previously? Seems like I heard they were all former 'pledges' from the University of Alabama Phi Gamma Delta chapter...

[SAEalumnus]

Originally Posted by itb2a

SAEalumnus:

Wasn't that because your Founders already knew him previously? Seems like I heard they were all former 'pledges' from the University of Alabama Phi Gamma Delta chapter...

Not so, actually. Each of our eight Founders had received a bid from at least one of the fraternities on campus and our primary Founder was bidded by all of them, but they were all unaffiliated at the time SAE was founded. Clements was well known on campus and heavily sought after by all of the fraternities.

[badgeguy]

Originally Posted by SAEalumnus

The first "bid" offered by our Founders was given to Newton Nash Clements (Alabama 1858), who was initiated a week after accepting it. The True Gentleman Experience is a bit more aggressive at a mandatory maximum of four days, but is otherwise historically consistent. The establishment of new chapters was similarly expedient, though I wonder whether the Supreme Council will likewise radically shorten the chartering process (I suspect a double standard will prevail).

That's the point I was making.....the whole idea of a pledge process is historically a new concept that was non existent back in the 1800s. Most people entering societies where often times people one or two of the membership knew from their hometowns, or met in classes and really hit it off.

The idea of someone the chapter wants to be a fellow brother having to "prove" their worth or desire is definitely a more recent (post 1900s) development. Society changed, as did the stature of Greek Letter Societies in general.

Back in the 1800s according to numerous magazine articles, "hazing" if you will was primarily done between classes ( seniors to freshman) sort of thing and not really within specific members of fraternities.....

There was however the reports of "horseplay" at initiations to which alumni always frowned upon.....but that was different than a whole semester or quarter of hazing a pledge....(and seems to forget that these are people who one WANTS to be able to call BROTHER!)

[SAEalumnus]

Originally Posted by badgeguy

That's the point I was making.....the whole idea of a pledge process is historically a new concept that was non existent back in the 1800s. Most people entering societies where often times people one or two of the membership knew from their hometowns, or met in classes and really hit it off.

The idea of someone the chapter wants to be a fellow brother having to "prove" their worth or desire is definitely a more recent (post 1900s) development. Society changed, as did the stature of Greek Letter Societies in general.

Back in the 1800s according to numerous magazine articles, "hazing" if you will was primarily done between classes ( seniors to freshman) sort of thing and not really within specific members of fraternities.....

There was however the reports of "horseplay" at initiations to which alumni always frowned upon.....but that was different than a whole semester or quarter of hazing a pledge....(and seems to forget that these are people who one WANTS to be able to call BROTHER!)

Agreed. However, Clements was well known on campus already. The same could not be said for the typical first term freshman no one has met before. You'd almost have to run a background check on him before offering a bid.

[badgeguy]

Is this new program only about trying to end hazing? Or are there other reasons?

[SOM]

New York Times: After Students’ Hazing-Related Deaths, Fraternity Eliminates Tradition of Pledging
TEMPE, Ariz. — After a string of injuries and deaths at its fraternity houses, Sigma Alpha Epsilon, one of the largest fraternities in the country, said it would no longer permit “pledging” as part of its initiation process for undergraduates seeking to join the organization, and would instead offer new brothers full membership within days of inviting them to join.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/11/ed...temail0=y&_r=0

UConn Temporarily Suspends Sorority, Fraternity As It Probes Hazing Allegation http://www.courant.com/news/connecti...,7720546.story

UConn Fraternity, Sorority Suspended After Hazing Allegations http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/l...mobile=o&nms=y

UConn, state police investigate sorority sister's hazing allegations http://www.wfsb.com/story/24936604/u...ng-allegations
Story has links to the letters sent to both SAE and KKG by UConn's Office of Community Standards