Hazing Oversensitivity - Page 4

TKErd345 · #46 02-04-2002, 04:21 PM

Attention everybody! Guess what? If you're in a GLO, you're being hazed. Don't believe me? Think about it. When you were initiated, you either took an oath, swore, promised, whatever, to uphold your organization's secrets. You know what that is? Wether you want to do that or not, that's hazing, because it was required that you do so. So let's all cut the bs on this hazing thing. Real hazing is making someone chug when they don't want to. Making meetings mandatory is not hazing. Delta Phi Whatever, get your head out of your ass, because whatever way you're gonna put it, you were hazed. Don't try to make it seem like you are better than anyone else. If you call your pledges pledges, then you're hazing. If you make them wear a pin, you're hazing. If you make them learn the alphabet, you're hazing. If you make them attend pledge education, you're hazing. If you're making them learn stuff about your fraternity, you're hazing. Now could everyone please just cut the "Someone looked at me the wrong way, therefore I was hazed" and if you're gonna post something, let it be about real hazing, not bs. OK?

DeltAlum · #47 02-04-2002, 05:56 PM

TKErd345,

Much of what you say is what this thread is all about. Some of us might agree. And some of us might not.

However, your opinion is just that -- your opinion. It is not a holy writ graven on some ancient cave wall. Everyone else on the board is entitled to his or hers as well.

This is a subtle way of saying that accusing other people of crainial/rectal syndrome in the other words that you used just isn't OK. Neither is calling other GCers opinions another phrase for Bovine Scatology.

Feel free to disagree, but do it with some dignity.

shadokat · #48 02-04-2002, 06:05 PM

TKErd345--

I encourage you to read what it was that TKE was founded on before you ask anyone else to get their head out of their ass. Also, as a member of an NIC fraternity, it is your job to abide by THEIR policies as well...and thusly, here is the NIC resolution on hazing from 1986.

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that the North-American Interfraternity Conference hereby unequivocally repeats its historic repudiation of any pre-initiation or initiation practices antithetical to the laws and underlying principles for which each member fraternity stands;

FURTHER, that this body expects each fraternity to take appropriate action to implement the intent of this resolution;

FURTHER, that the Conference not only records its continuing disapproval of hazing in the strongest possible terms, but declares its intention to monitor closely the incidents of this activity through the establishment of a special ad hoc committee for su ch purpose, and

FURTHER, that all member fraternities endorse this resolution.

___

I would further advise you to read California's Hazing Law below:California Hazing Law
EDUCATION CODE

SECTION 32050-32051

32050. As used in this article, "hazing" includes any method of initiation or preinitiation into a student organization or any pastime or amusement engaged in with respect to such an organization which causes, or is likely to cause, bodily danger, physical harm, or personal degradation or disgrace resulting in physical or mental harm, to any student or other person attending any school, community college, college, university or other educational institution in this state; but the term "hazing" does not include customary athletic events or other similar contests or competitions.

32051. No student, or other person in attendance at any public, private, parochial, or military school, community college, college, or other educational institution, shall conspire to engage in hazing, participate in hazing, or commit any act that causes or is likely to cause bodily danger, physical harm, or personal degradation or disgrace resulting in physical or mental harm to any fellow student or person attending the institution. The violation of this section is a misdemeanor, punishable by a fine of not less than one hundred dollars ($100), nor more than five thousand dollars ($5,000), or imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year, or both.

___

Now, with that said, no matter how you try to justify hazing within your chapter, the simple truth is that it's against the law. Forcing someone to wear a pin is hazing, but asking them to wear a pin with the stated intent that if they don't want to, that's ok too, isn't hazing. I have never met a new member in my own sorority that refused to wear their new member pin. It's not asking someone to wear the pin, but how you're asking to wear the pin that constitutes hazing.

We don't call our pledges pledges anymore, because it was resolved by the National Panhellenic Conference to use the term new member, which, as a member of the NPC, is what we do.

New members are well aware of what is expected of them when they come through the doors of our house for new member orientation. Membership in our organization requires weekly meetings, learning of history, ideals and values of our organization through various positive activities, learning about the NPC and its role in sorority life, learn how a sorority works in terms of chapter management and leadership positions, etc. None of this is hazing.

I guess the question I ask is if you're choosing new members who aren't willing to do the tasks required to gain membership into your organization, then maybe you're not choosing new members wisely? I'm not sure...we never had anyone who refused to learn about our organization, come to meetings or follow through on new member stuff who didn't end up depledging immediately after New member orientation started.

TKErd345 · #49 02-05-2002, 06:28 AM

We've never hazed any of our pledges, and we're currently #2 in numbers at my chapter. People learn because they want to, and all of our pledges become very close friends with us, even before they get initiated, and the ones who drop for whatever reason, family, time, job, etc, are still good friends with us. We make education fun and they like learning. So don't tell me that I'm trying to justify hazing at my chapter, because we are a very stand up chapter, who follows the rules to the letter. Mmkay? That being said, I was trying to prove a point, but I guess everyone has to go all out and get technical, and COMPLETELY MISS my point. Read my message again, shadokat, and don't try to look at the smaller details, but get the big picture, ok? Wether or not a pledge wants to learn the alphabet, if he/she learns it, EVEN IF THEY WANTED TO, it's still hazing because it's mental stress/harm, etc... ok? That's what I'm trying to get across to people. That the definition of hazing is too stupidified for anyone to do anything. In response to something you said, asking a pledge to wear a pin, of course they're not going to say no. But whatever... I don't think you remember how you were when you were a pledge.. I know I was proud when I got my pin, and nobody needed to ask me to wear it. I wanted to wear it so bad. All of our members love their chapter and all of their brothers, and that's that. We didn't have to go through hazing and all this crap. So my point of view is that all the people that we have, we have chosen wisely. And to quote you "I guess the question I ask is if you're choosing new members who aren't willing to do the tasks required to gain membership into your organization, then maybe you're not choosing new members wisely?", I must take from that question that you guys haze hardcore. We don't have a series of tasks that our pledges have to go through.. They just become our friends and over time, much more... aka brothers! Oh, and you wanna know something else? Depledging is also hazing! Don't believe me? "PERSONAL DEGRADATION OR DISGRACE". I think you will get what I'm saying. Btw, I know absolutely everything that TKE stands for, and I don't need you to remind me. Especially since you don't know even 1% of what I do. OK? Peace

TKErd345 · #50 02-05-2002, 06:29 AM

a little correction.. we're the #2 chapter (in terms of numbers) at our school... because another fraternity just rushes for numbers... they don't ever have more than 35-40% attendance in Greek Week participation or their meetings... my friend (who is in the fraternity) has told me this...

shadokat · #51 02-05-2002, 11:42 AM

TKErd345--

I didn't accuse you of hazing at your chapter. And I don't assume that you do.

To respond to some of your points:

First, wearing a NM pin is hazing when they are forced to do so. As a sophmore in college, I had the self-esteem to do what I wanted to do, and that was to wear that pin with pride. One girl in my new member class forgot to wear her pin, and she received no reprecussions because of it. And you're right, most of us wore that pin out of pride and joy! There's no denying that. Which is exactly why it ISN'T hazing in this context.

Second, how you constitute learning the greek alphabet as hazing because it's "mental stress/harm", well our new members don't see it that way. I remember when I was a new member very vividly, and after going through the big process of recruitment and finding a sorority to call home, I wanted to know everything about it! It wasn't mentally stressful or harmful to me. And 99 of 100 new members in my sorority would say the same thing. If you want to call it hazing, do so. I'm obviously not going to change your mind.

Thirdly, my chapter never has and never will haze for a few simple reasons. #1) We don't believe in it. #2) It's illegal.
#3) We watch countless women depledge from other sororities due to hazing. My new member program was full of fun, getting to know sisters, meeting new people and experiencing sorority life. Along with all of that, we are asked, going into the process, to learn what it is that makes our sorority so special...our history and traditions. Just as you were probably asked as a new member at TKE. If you think that getting to know sisters, having a good time at community service, social and other events and meeting new people is hazing, then apparently you wouldn't condone my chapter. The new members are integrated as part of the group long before they are initiated. I encourage you to save your judgments of my chapter until you know the facts.

Finally, depledging is hazing?? Not on my campus it isn't. We don't ask women to depledge, nor have we had many in the 10 years since our founding. If a woman chooses to depledge, she does so for her own reasons and is not treated as some leper. We have had a few women who left for financial or family reasons who are still wonderful friends with the chapter.

Hazing is about degradation, disgrace and embarrassment of people by someone else. NOT by themselves. Unless you're saying that you can haze yourself, and that if you do, your fraternity is responsible for that as well.

I have an idea of what TKE stands for, more than 1% I'm sure. Some of them were my best friends in college, and when their fraternity house burned to the ground and 3 of their brothers died, our sorority was by their side helping with whatever they needed. We had a date auction and gave all of the proceeds to them. We bought them letters to put on the site of their old house to remember the brothers who died.

Sorry to have gone on so long here...just felt the need to answer some of this.

KarenC725 · #52 02-05-2002, 01:45 PM

I'm not trying to take sides in the banter that has been happening but want to give my 2 cents. A lot of what has been discussed is subject to perception. No, most people don't consider having to learn the alphabet as hazing, most NM like wearing the pin. But, there are some out there that consider anything other than showing up for parties/meetings/paying money for a t-shirt to be hazing.

For example: we had quizzes every Monday night during our pledge term (back when it was pledging). we had a girl call national because we had to take a quiz. mind you, if you answered at least 1 question right you passed but that's another story. she felt that this was forcing us to do something. the fact that she was about as intelligent as the smiley face to my left aside, she was a b*itch when it came to NM activities.

So, it came down to her viewing something as hazing, not that the rest of us did, but to her it was.

FuzzieAlum · #53 02-05-2002, 02:14 PM

I know my Nationals doesn't allow quizzes, which I confess to finding a little silly. However, the main point of distinction I see between hazing/not hazing is, is this something required of new members and initiated members both?

It's true - a member in a Greek organization whether as a NM or an initiate IS required to do certain things. Chapter meetings are required, for example. New members must go to new member meetings - generally while initiated members are in chapter meetings, and in my recollection the NMs were generally having a lot more fun than we were! Heck, initiated sisters had more things they were required to do than NMs did.

If saying that a group requiring its members to do ANYTHING is considered hazing, then we're stretching the definition of hazing just to make a point. In that case, every honor society, every university, every employer is out there hazing. But I think that's a deliberate misunderstanding of what the term "hazing" means.

shadokat · #54 02-05-2002, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FuzzieAlum
I know my Nationals doesn't allow quizzes, which I confess to finding a little silly. However, the main point of distinction I see between hazing/not hazing is, is this something required of new members and initiated members both?

It's true - a member in a Greek organization whether as a NM or an initiate IS required to do certain things. Chapter meetings are required, for example. New members must go to new member meetings - generally while initiated members are in chapter meetings, and in my recollection the NMs were generally having a lot more fun than we were! Heck, initiated sisters had more things they were required to do than NMs did.

If saying that a group requiring its members to do ANYTHING is considered hazing, then we're stretching the definition of hazing just to make a point. In that case, every honor society, every university, every employer is out there hazing. But I think that's a deliberate misunderstanding of what the term "hazing" means.

I concur

Tom Earp · #55 02-05-2002, 06:40 PM

If you so not want to learn about you Organizations History, Local nad International and consider this hazing, then get the hell out!

This may not be for your appeitite! Everything is so Politically Correct these days it gets a little sickening! If you do not want to know about the organization you are joing, then why even be in!

I hope that every new associate who joins my Chapter knows My Name and All of The Founding Fathers of the Chapter they wish to be a member of!

Your arguments are falling on deaf ears here!

Many of us have worked long and hard and still working to keep the Fire Burning to keep our respective Chapters operating!
Will you when you Graduate?

Or will you be like some that say I was a member of XYZ Organization!

if that is the case get out NOW!

SigkapAlumWSU · #56 02-05-2002, 07:18 PM

I think that the PC terms of hazing have come too far. At all my NM meetings, we had active members right along side with us, refreshing their memories, and encouraging us to learn what we were to become a part of. Yes, NM are required to attend meetings to learn about their GLO, but Actives are required to attend Chapter meetings, pledging, initiation, etc.... and Actives get to do these things that NM don't... is that hazing? if it is, then I think we need to re-examine what we are doing wrong. Sure, some people will use the *term* hazing as an excuse not to do some things (like not taking quizzes...) but they are not actually being hazed. Again, Hazing in the terms stated in my national policy (and the NPC policy) I believe to be wrong. But when did learning and the process of becoming a member in the GLO of your choice become a bad thing?
I am required to go to class because attendance counts.. must be hazing...
I have to pay tuition so I can go to school.. must be hazing...
Seriously folks, I think that with a little common sense we can distinguish the diference between right and wrong, hazing and learning.
I don't have to go to class or pay my tuition, and by the same token, I had the choice to learn my GLO history and attend NM meetings... if you belive it is wrong, and you think you are being forced to do it, DON'T. Simple. It is a choice, all the same.

Optimist Prime · #57 02-05-2002, 08:34 PM

I absolutely refuse to use the terms recruitment in place of rush and new member in place of pledge. Once the process changes, then the vocabulary can change with it, but not untill then. If you say calling someone a pledge is wrong because it makes them realize they are not a full part of the group then what does the term New Member do? The same thing, thats what it does. But you can't call them members because they are not full members. And recruiment if you only do it for a week or two and ask the same questions "HI where are you from, whats your major, what do you think of this profesor, i like your hair, blah blah blah blah blah" it is the same exact thing. Call it what it is and you will run into less problems.

justamom · #58 02-06-2002, 07:51 AM

Where is the common sense?
My daughter told me at LSU the depledging in a couple of fraternities is kind of high.(15 or 17 for one) She has seen pledges who had the the crp beat out of them. Others, it's a mental thing, answer correctly or you do something that appears to be gross but really isn't. I can see why this is debatable-it's a matter of degree. BUT-there are IDIOTS in some of these orgs that cause real harm to pledges. It is unacceptable to place ANYONE in harms way!
However...
When you apply for a job you are expected to know something about the industry. They have training sessions and if you don't learn the information, you are "let go". To allow someone to just skate through without understanding the history is detrimental to the organization. Tom and Billy are right about things being too "PC". Nationals has a real concern however. Maybe part of this discussion belongs under Frivolous Lawsuits.

N2 · #59 02-06-2002, 10:17 AM

"PC".........Politicaly Correct?

Yes, I seem to remember something about this. I have written pages on this subject. Those of you who have read it know that I am on the intense side of the hazing issue. But, the responses that I have received have run the full gamut. Starting with the gagging PC of 'DeltAlum' to some of the moderates that you read here. I have received many more comments through the private responses on this site. The majority of them are much closer aligned with my perspective. I wish that they would post their views here at least "Anonymously". The point would be that there are still many chapters that REFUSE to lay down and accept the ram rod that the Greek community has received from lawmakers. Many of whom are alumni brothers of every conceivable chapter. Talk about cowing down. These are the people that need to be reminded where they came from. In the meantime, don't reduce your intake system to a laughing stock.

justamom · #60 02-06-2002, 01:22 PM

N2, please forgive me if this has been asked before. Does the majority of your alum assoc. feel as you do? What about National HQ? I'm just curious if you all share the same philosophy where this subject is concerned.