Trinity College(CT) - All Greek Orgs Told to Go Co-ed

[naraht]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

The problem is not whether GLOs are single-sex or co-ed. The problem is someone on the outside trying to force them to be what they don't want to be.


Just the fraternity is a member of the NIC. Alpha Delta Phi Fraternity is not co-ed. Alpha Delta Phi Society, formed of some chapters that broke away from Alpha Delta Phi Fraternity over the co-ed issue, considers itself a literary society, not a fraternity. The two groups share the Greek letters, symbols, history and (I think) ritual, but they are separate organizations.

Delta Psi (St. Anthony Hall) is co-ed and is an NIC member. It and Psi U are the only co-ed NIC fraternities I can think of right now.

Agreed, force them to be something they don't want to be. *But*, viewed from the *outside*, forcing all the greek letter organizations to admit both men and women isn't that different from forcing them to admit Negros or Jews. I'm definitely *not* saying that this should be forced, but it should be kept in mind the way that those making the decision are seeing the parallels ...

In addition, I'm curious whether Delta Psi (St. Anthony's Hall) has a *significantly* better track record legally than the other fraternities and the sororities? (fewer arrests for underage drinking, etc.). It doesn't sound like that was the reason from the original article. It was more like, we want to transform our student life and making sure that all students can join all groups is one of the things we want to do. Note, getting rid of the pledging period is also one of the rules as is a proposed 3.2 house average, so this sweep may also affect Delta Psi (no idea what Delta Psi's new membership policy looks like). I truly wonder if Delta Psi wasn't there as an example, whether they would have just nuked all of the social GLOs.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by naraht

Also, does anyone know if this forced change to co-ed has ever happened before?

It happened at Amherst way back when. The story i heard is that all the Greek Organization were forced to initiate women. The Gamma of Psi U got away with it for a few years by submiting first initials only on the membership form, but eventually they started to submit whole names and got caught. They were brought to the carpet at Convention and were able to successfully able to argue that they didn't violate the tenets of Psi Upsilon. The constitution never says that a member needs to be a male. Granted they probably didn't see that as something that had to be addressed since colleges were mostly all male at that point anyway.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

It happened at Amherst way back when. The story i heard is that all the Greek Organization were forced to initiate women. The Gamma of Psi U got away with it for a few years by submiting first initials only on the membership form, but eventually they started to submit whole names and got caught. They were brought to the carpet at Convention and were able to successfully able to argue that they didn't violate the tenets of Psi Upsilon. The constitution never says that a member needs to be a male. Granted they probably didn't see that as something that had to be addressed since colleges were mostly all male at that point anyway.

Interesting. I like the logic.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by naraht

Agreed, force them to be something they don't want to be. *But*, viewed from the *outside*, forcing all the greek letter organizations to admit both men and women isn't that different from forcing them to admit Negros or Jews. I'm definitely *not* saying that this should be forced, but it should be kept in mind the way that those making the decision are seeing the parallels ...

I think that parents who had a choice of their 18 year old daughter living with 1) a Jewish woman 2) a Black woman 3) an 18 year old male would highly disagree.

[naraht]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I think that parents who had a choice of their 18 year old daughter living with 1) a Jewish woman 2) a Black woman 3) an 18 year old male would highly disagree.

I've met a woman (friend of my mother's) whose parents found 2 & 3 equally unacceptable.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I think that parents who had a choice of their 18 year old daughter living with 1) a Jewish woman 2) a Black woman 3) an 18 year old male would highly disagree.

Unfortunately, that is a really heteronormative view of the situation.

[badgeguy]

I've read articles about when the infamous Yale Secret societies had to go Co-Ed!! Boy that had to be a tough sell to the old boys networks and alumni!!
Referring to Skull and Bones and Scroll and Key an Wolfshead, although I'm not positive if Wolfshead is coed or not.....

BG

[33girl]

Originally Posted by naraht

I've met a woman (friend of my mother's) whose parents found 2 & 3 equally unacceptable.

Oh yeah, there was a girl on my floor who she and her parents met the Black roommate on day 1 and promptly moved her stuff out. But if it was a choice between living there and living with a guy I'm pretty sure I know which they would have picked. (We are talking old school dorm rooms here, not suites with individual bedrooms)

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

Unfortunately, that is a really heteronormative view of the situation.

It is, but the point is that sex organs =/= skin color or religion. Fraternities and sororities have been admitting people of various colors and religions for quite a while now and they're still identifiable as fraternities and sororities. I believe that if all fraternities and sororities were forced to admit people of the opposite sex, the Greek system would morph into something completely different.

Here's the other thing in this scenario - have there been actual men trying to join the sororities and upset that they can't, or vice versa? The whole "we want to give all students the opportunity to join" rings quite holllow when there's no evidence that any of the students want the "opportunity" that they are trying to create. When Dartmouth went coed, some of the fraternities also went coed on their own, without the school forcing them to do so.

[naraht]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Oh yeah, there was a girl on my floor who she and her parents met the Black roommate on day 1 and promptly moved her stuff out. But if it was a choice between living there and living with a guy I'm pretty sure I know which they would have picked. (We are talking old school dorm rooms here, not suites with individual bedrooms)



It is, but the point is that sex organs =/= skin color or religion. Fraternities and sororities have been admitting people of various colors and religions for quite a while now and they're still identifiable as fraternities and sororities. I believe that if all fraternities and sororities were forced to admit people of the opposite sex, the Greek system would morph into something completely different.

Here's the other thing in this scenario - have there been actual men trying to join the sororities and upset that they can't, or vice versa? The whole "we want to give all students the opportunity to join" rings quite holllow when there's no evidence that any of the students want the "opportunity" that they are trying to create. When Dartmouth went coed, some of the fraternities also went coed on their own, without the school forcing them to do so.

Her parents would have made her go to a different university if 2 & 3 were the only options...

I'm not totally sure how the GLO system would change, Title IX certainly did a number of the Honoraries, but definitely not the same level.

Well, at least *some* students want the option, Delta Psi's chapter is currently co-ed.

Wait... I just figured it out. There would be men who would want to join Sororities, they aren't willing to put up with Gamma Rhos, ranking sororities, cross-cutting and other parts of NPC rush. Since the NPHC sororities don't have that, that's why you get groups like MIAKA.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

Unfortunately, that is a really heteronormative view of the situation.

Yeah, we all know about the topless pillow fights and whatnot.

[Kevin]

The race/religion thing doesn't really fly. The core of our business is that we are residential associations which offer alternatives to ordinary student life, a degree of exclusivity, superior access to opportunities created by alumni, etc. The residential aspect is where our organizations are able to acquire money to invest back into themselves, etc.

If Trinity is only offering co-ed dorms, we could say they were being consistent here. I strongly doubt that is the case.

[naraht]

Originally Posted by Kevin

The race/religion thing doesn't really fly. The core of our business is that we are residential associations which offer alternatives to ordinary student life, a degree of exclusivity, superior access to opportunities created by alumni, etc. The residential aspect is where our organizations are able to acquire money to invest back into themselves, etc.

If Trinity is only offering co-ed dorms, we could say they were being consistent here. I strongly doubt that is the case.

My guess is that we are at least two generations from any significant college selecting roommates for Freshmen at random from the entire Freshman class regardless of gender...

[HQWest]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Here's the other thing in this scenario - have there been actual men trying to join the sororities and upset that they can't, or vice versa? The whole "we want to give all students the opportunity to join" rings quite holllow when there's no evidence that any of the students want the "opportunity" that they are trying to create. When Dartmouth went coed, some of the fraternities also went coed on their own, without the school forcing them to do so.

I do not know of any examples at Trinity with men wanting to join sororities; however, this has come up in a couple of cases.

I remember one of these from 10-15 years ago at Indiana. In that case men that wanted to make the case that because of housing inequalities that they should be allowed to join sororities.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

All dorms at Trinity are co-ed. Some floors are single-sex.

Coed dorms =/= coed ROOMS.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Kevin

The core of our business is that we are residential associations which offer alternatives to ordinary student life, a degree of exclusivity, superior access to opportunities created by alumni, etc. The residential aspect is where our organizations are able to acquire money to invest back into themselves, etc.

That residential aspect is not true of all fraternities and sororities, or of all campuses, though, so I don't know that that can be considered the "core" of the (social) Greek enterprise.