University of Texas Supreme Court case

[Kevin]

It's also likely true that Susie's school was more academically rigorous.

[Low C Sharp]

Well, isn't that in part of what college essays are for?

Public schools with 50,000 undergrads don't have the staff time to devote to reading tens of thousands of admissions essays. There is no school the size of UT where essays play a big role in the process.

Even if they could read them all, essays can't be the answer. Kids from crummy high schools have crummy guidance counselors too. Those crummy GCs give them bad advice like, "Don't tell them you are working 30 hours a week to help pay the rent. It'll make the college think you won't have time to study." (I've seen it happen; you would not believe the incompetence and ignorance of some counselors.)

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

Public schools with 50,000 undergrads don't have the staff time to devote to reading tens of thousands of admissions essays. There is no school the size of UT where essays play a big role in the process.

My understanding is that essays DO play a big part. They don't consider race on its own, they consider it as part of a holistic score for all the students who are in the "maybe" pile, along with essays and other demographic factors.

[GeorgiaGreek]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

My understanding is that essays DO play a big part. They don't consider race on its own, they consider it as part of a holistic score for all the students who are in the "maybe" pile, along with essays and other demographic factors.

I think essays definitely play a part. I was deferred from a large state school's early decision (or early action? Too long ago; don't remember) when the school was very much a "safety" school for me. I was well above the 75% for SAT scores, had a fine GPA, etc. and put almost zero effort into my essay, assuming I was a shoo-in. I'm also a member of a demographic the school sorely lacks, and assumed this would assure my acceptance as well. After getting deferred, my college counselor contacted the admissions office (she had some wicked connections) of that college to get some insight, and basically was told that my essay just wasn't up to scratch and they really used that as part of the early decision considerations.
If it were just based on statistics and the bullet points of my extracurriculars, I think I would have been accepted in the first round. (As a side note, this isn't UGA that I'm talking about)

[Ladybugmom]

My daughter goes to UT. She also went to a very rigerous high school that sends quite a few students to UT each year. She was not in the top 10%, but she did have good test scores, good GPA at a difficult high school, and good extra curriculars. She was in the top 20%. She is a legacy to UT. Her father graduated from there in the 80's. Her legacy status was not a factor in her admissions. I also know that she is surrounded by friends who were in the top 10% of their less difficult high school and they are struggling. Carnation was 100% correct in her earlier post stating that not all high schools are equal.

Munchkin asked in an earlier post about how do legacies get admitted..the simple answer is just like everyone eles. UT does not consider legacy status when making admission decisions. The Hopwood Act, which inacted the top 10% rule, states that it is illegal to consider legacy status. As far as athletes, that is an entirely different ballgame and Im not sure if they are mentioned in the Hopwood Act.

I can't quote the exact breakdown of this year's student body, but I do know that white is no longer considered the majority at UT. The white student population is 49%. Blacks make up only 4%, Hispanics are at 22% and Asians are at 25%..these are approx. numbers based on an e-mail I received from the university. UT is also the most expensive Texas state university, which makes attending there cost prohibitive for many students.

I really dont know what the answer is. I do wonder why Ms. Fisher didnt just transfer into UT, which is much easier by the way, due to attrition from the students that fail out. She would then be a part of "the good ole boy network" here in the state of Texas

[DubaiSis]

There is no such thing as equally qualified when it comes to these sorts of things because people are first and foremost super special snowflakes. And as has been discussed here, a 4.0 is not a 4.0 is not a 4.0. It depends on the school, the curriculum, your class choices, your extracurriculars, etc. AND it depends on your social background. The kid who grows up in South Central with a crackhead for a Mom who manages to pull out a 3.5 with 1 sport has accomplished A LOT. The kid with the tutor and the high prestige high school and a car from before she's 16 and summer camp every year with a 3.5 hasn't done much.

But that being said, I'm really of 2 minds about these arguments, and really would like to err in favor of advantage instead of race. The poor kid described above could be any race, including white, and my opinion of her accomplishment wouldn't change. And as the economic upper echelons become more racially diverse, the racial minority rich kids don't require the same leg up their parents and grandparents did. But I'm also afraid that a lot of schools would quickly backtrack to the good old days when they only accepted white boys. But on the other hand (how many hands is that now) I do believe there is a significant portion of the population, including rich white boys, who would choose not to attend a school that lacked any diversity. Using Harvard as an example, they continue to be one of the toughest schools to get into, and they work very hard at having all 50 states, many countries, both genders, and every race covered in every new freshman class. And they seem to still accomplish this while letting in plenty of legacies. I can't imagine them changing that policy just because they don't have to accept minorities, women, etc. But would Big State U? I don't know.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DubaiSis

But that being said, I'm really of 2 minds about these arguments . . . .

Only 2?

"Affirmative action" can take so many forms and mean so many things, and the history, considerations and implications involved are anything but simple and straightforward. That's one reason I look askance when someone says something like "I will never believe that affirmative action is a good solution."

[adpimiz]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Only 2?

"Affirmative action" can take so many forms and mean so many things, and the history, considerations and implications involved are anything but simple and straightforward. That's one reason I look askance when someone says something like "I will never believe that affirmative action is a good solution."

I was, admittedly, thinking more of race/ethnicity than social background/upbringing.

[Munchkin03]

Totally unrelated to the specific issue of UT, but to the larger issue of fairness in admission vs. perceived "diversity," here's an issue rumbling about in NYC:

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/20...-under-review/

Here's the TL;DR version: NYC has 9 specialized public high schools. One is an arts high school that requires a portfolio; the other 8 require an exam, taken in the 8th grade. The schools are extremely prestigious; one has the distinction of having more Nobel laureates than any other HS in the country. Unlike the rest of NYC's public high schools which, for the most part, are majority Black and Latino, the three most selective are majority Asian, with White, Black, and Latino students making up the rest. Socioecomically, the students come from more working class/middle class environments than the general public school population, which is more working class/poor.

Now, the NAACP has sued because they feel the test is obviously unfair to Black and Latino students, since they tend not to score so well. Apparently, there aren't cultural biases in this test like there are alleged to be in the SAT. The DOE offers a FREE summer-long prep course, which includes meals; many schools offer after-school prep for kids who can't do the summer program.

Most people have come forward saying that the test is perfectly fair, and the schools don't look at anything else but the test scores. So, what say you, GC population?

Even as a proponent of socioeconomic-based AA, I feel that the NAACP, like most of their lawsuits, doesn't have a leg to stand on with this one. Has anyone read about the firefighters' exams?

[GeorgiaGreek]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

Now, the NAACP has sued because they feel the test is obviously unfair to Black and Latino students, since they tend not to score so well. Apparently, there aren't cultural biases in this test like there are alleged to be in the SAT. The DOE offers a FREE summer-long prep course, which includes meals; many schools offer after-school prep for kids who can't do the summer program.

Most people have come forward saying that the test is perfectly fair, and the schools don't look at anything else but the test scores. So, what say you, GC population?

Even as a proponent of socioeconomic-based AA, I feel that the NAACP, like most of their lawsuits, doesn't have a leg to stand on with this one. Has anyone read about the firefighters' exams?

Can anyone give a specific example of how a test could be biased to someone of a particular race? I know there have been issues with standardized tests asking questions that may be biased towards economic status (ex. a math question involving an escalator would be confusing to someone from a poor and/or rural area where they have never seen an escalator) but how could a test possibly ask questions that favor an ethnicity?

[DubaiSis]

I am way more on the side of affirmative action than against. And I believe once you add any sort of restricted selection into a process it is part of the human condition to want to select people "Like you." And therefore the people not like you need a little bit of a leg up to get offered the same opportunities.

I am concerned for the demise of affirmative action where it concerns women. Our status on an even playing field is tenuous at best right now. Yes, we don't seem to have a problem getting into college, but would that change if they didn't HAVE to accept women?

But I guess I've always believed that if you have 2 people who are "equally qualified" the spot should go to the person who would benefit greater from the leg up. And the stories that many people can come up with where the black kid buffoon got into college when the stellar but sadly rich and white kid didn't make the cut I think are way more rare than the stories would make them seem. Reverse discrimination is (IMO) verging on urban myth.

[Psi U MC Vito]

It favors more a culture then an ethnicity. Since minorities tend to be in a lower social class then European Americans, there is a feeling that tests are biased against them since they are written form a certain social class.

[GeorgiaGreek]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

It favors more a culture then an ethnicity. Since minorities tend to be in a lower social class then European Americans, there is a feeling that tests are biased against them since they are written form a certain social class.

I would really like a specific example here, as I'm having trouble understanding how there could be such a bias. I'm assuming this would have to be a problem (if it is truly a problem) on the reading/writing sections, because, for the most part, math is math. Though, I have noticed that names used in word problems are way more often traditionally ethnic names ("Ming, Raj and Lupita each have a bag of marbles...").

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaGreek

I would really like a specific example here, as I'm having trouble understanding how there could be such a bias.

The standard example that I tend to see cited is an SAT question from about 20 years ago:

RUNNER: MARATHON :: A) envoy: embassy B) martyr: massacre C) oarsman: regatta D) referee: tournament E) horse: stable

The correct answer is C), but being able to answer that correctly arguably presumes knowledge of boating and regattas, which are typically associated with middle- and upper-class white culture and often are not within the cultural experience of, say, inner-city or poor rural students. Yes, the question could perhaps be answered by the process of elimination without specific knowledge of boating, but the point made is that the question and correct answer appear to assume a common base of knowledge that in reality may not be common to some cultural segments of the population.

I can't speak to what questions are like these days.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

The standard example that I tend to see cited is an SAT question from about 20 years ago:

RUNNER: MARATHON :: A) envoy: embassy B) martyr: massacre C) oarsman: regatta D) referee: tournament E) horse: stable

The correct answer is C), but being able to answer that correctly arguably presumes knowledge of boating and regattas, which are typically associated with middle- and upper-class white culture and often are not within the cultural experience of, say, inner-city or poor rural students. Yes, the question could perhaps be answered by the process of elimination without specific knowledge of boating, but the point made is that the question and correct answer appear to assume a common base of knowledge that in reality may not be common to some cultural segments of the population.

I can't speak to what questions are like these days.

I did not know what a regatta was until I saw a Dawson's Creek episode in which one featured prominently. This has nothing to do with the topic at hand, except to say that it may also be a regional thing (or a WASP thing?), as I grew up both white and upper-middle class.