12-year-old tased by police officer

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by IrishLake

If he didn't warn her, then I reserve the right to change my opinion.

Can you explain why you would change your opinion? Police do not always warn people just like they do not always warn people for pepper spray.

Originally Posted by IrishLake

Absofuckinglutely. And that girl looks just like what my own oldest daughter could look like in another 6 years.

Get the taser ready?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by IrishLake

If we're keeping it that simple, then my opinion is yes it is ok to use a taser on a 12 year old who is interfering with a police officer making an arrest AS LONG AS he gave fair warning that he would tase her if she didn't stop. If he didn't warn her, then I reserve the right to change my opinion.

Would it matter to you if there were less drastic means by which an officer could deal with someone interfering with an arrest? In other words, do you think the offer should reasonably believe that use of the taser is necessary to deal with the situation, or is it enough for the officer to have the discretion to use the taser (with adequate warning) any time a 12-year-old is interfering with an arrest?

[IrishLake]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Would it matter to you if there were less drastic means by which an officer could deal with someone interfering with an arrest? In other words, do you think the offer should reasonably believe that use of the taser is necessary to deal with the situation, or is it enough for the officer to have the discretion to use the taser (with adequate warning) any time a 12-year-old is interfering with an arrest?

I guess I don't see the difference between the two? I know you rephrased it after your first question, but I'm still not getting it.

I want to answer yes to both.

[IrishLake]

Because I believe a good verbal warning is necessary. If he warned her, and she persisted, then the tasing is justified. If he didn't warn her, and he tased her, then he made a severely bad judgement call. In a situation like this a verbal warning would be appropriate.

lol. Maybe. Depends on how rotten my kid is being. If my kid is fucking with a cop who is trying to arrest me, and he or she didn't LISTEN then yes. It would suck, and they'd deserve it. If it were me in that situation of being arrested in front of my flipping out child, you'd better believe I would calmly comply with the arresting officer, all the while expressing to my child that it will be ok and they should not interfere.

[justgo_withit]

I was raised in the sort of culture that sees police officers as protectors and people who make great sacrifices for the benefit of others; the "if you have a problem, ask that nice cop and they'll fix it" type of perspective. I've also had no reason to question this in my few adult years (with the exception of a police officer who pulled me over going 44 in a 40. Seriously??). Because of this, I'm more inclined to think that the officer's actions were acceptable and we'll hear that there's more to the story in support of him. However, if I were raised in a culture that saw police officers as our abusive, power-tripping overseers whose main goal is to suppress the masses (dramatizing to convey the differences in opinions, feel free to tone it down as you wish), I know that I would feel very differently about this situation. With this, I legitimately believe that I can trust a vast majority of cops. Like other beliefs, this is based in my upbringing and the small scope of my personal experience/the experiences of others that I have heard about. I also understand and realize that there are as many, if not more people in America who legitimately believe that cops are to be avoided, never trusted. Like other beliefs, this is based in their upbringing and the scope of their personal experience/the experiences of others that they have heard about. Possibly education, if they have studied this issue in depth from a variety of perspectives.

tl;dr: I (for lack of a better term) "side" with the cop because cops have been nice to me and I have no reason not to trust them. I am not particularly naive, or a dumbass, and am fully aware that there are probably more people who "side" with the girl for the exact opposite reason, and I don't think my belief is any more correct than theirs is. It's not a competition.

[IrishLake]

Originally Posted by Old_Row

Cristian Fernandez
Jasmine Richardson
Jordan Brown
Christian Romero
Mary Bell
Robert Thompson
Jon Venables


All 12 years old and under. Would it be ok for a cop to taser them during an arrest?

I don't know what any of them have done, and I'm too lazy to google. If they were resisting arrest, or in some way physically interfering with an arrest, and fair warning was given, then yes, absolutely.

Originally Posted by justgo_withit

I was raised in the sort of culture that sees police officers as protectors and people who make great sacrifices for the benefit of others; the "if you have a problem, ask that nice cop and they'll fix it" type of perspective. I've also had no reason to question this in my few adult years (with the exception of a police officer who pulled me over going 44 in a 40. Seriously??). Because of this, I'm more inclined to think that the officer's actions were acceptable and we'll hear that there's more to the story in support of him. However, if I were raised in a culture that saw police officers as our abusive, power-tripping overseers whose main goal is to suppress the masses (dramatizing to convey the differences in opinions, feel free to tone it down as you wish), I know that I would feel very differently about this situation. With this, I legitimately believe that I can trust a vast majority of cops. Like other beliefs, this is based in my upbringing and the small scope of my personal experience/the experiences of others that I have heard about. I also understand and realize that there are as many, if not more people in America who legitimately believe that cops are to be avoided, never trusted. Like other beliefs, this is based in their upbringing and the scope of their personal experience/the experiences of others that they have heard about. Possibly education, if they have studied this issue in depth from a variety of perspectives.

tl;dr: I (for lack of a better term) "side" with the cop because cops have been nice to me and I have no reason not to trust them. I am not particularly naive, or a dumbass, and am fully aware that there are probably more people who "side" with the girl for the exact opposite reason, and I don't think my belief is any more correct than theirs is. It's not a competition.

Very well put. Thank you.

[AXOmom]

Justgowithit - I probably have your same assumptions for similar reasons. Still, I'm not comfortable coming down on either side of this until I've heard and seen more information i.e. store videos, witness reports, police reports etc.


************************************************** *
Like others on here, I worked with kids in the juvenile justice system, and saw some who were violent enough that if taser had been available, I would have seen it as a safe and appropriate option for our staff.

But this isn't a girl sitting inside a JD center and she apparently wasn't in the middle of committing a criminal act, so....

At what age would it always be the wrong decision? I'd probably lean towards assuming that if they're too young by state law to go to juvenile detention (12 in most states), and it's unlikely that anyone in that age group would be large enough to be a dangerous threat to an adult (typically under 12 or 13), they're too young to be tasered, but I don't hold that position with any certainty.

I was looking around for policies police are supposed to follow in order to use a taser. Couldn't find anything for St. Louis. I found this for Connecticut, but I'm sure it varies a lot by state, county and city, so I don't know that it's helpful:

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2006/rpt/2006-r-0166.htm

I assume all departments have a written policy, and it would concern me if I found out that isn't the case.

While looking for that I found this story on a 10 year old in Ark who was tasered. In this case the mother told the cop that he could taser the child if necessary. The cop was subsequently fired.
http://www.lineofduty.com/the-blotter/105625-ark-cop-fired-for-insubordination-in-tasering-of-10-yr-old-girl

[amIblue?]

Originally Posted by justgo_withit

I was raised in the sort of culture that sees police officers as protectors and people who make great sacrifices for the benefit of others; the "if you have a problem, ask that nice cop and they'll fix it" type of perspective. I've also had no reason to question this in my few adult years (with the exception of a police officer who pulled me over going 44 in a 40. Seriously??). Because of this, I'm more inclined to think that the officer's actions were acceptable and we'll hear that there's more to the story in support of him. However, if I were raised in a culture that saw police officers as our abusive, power-tripping overseers whose main goal is to suppress the masses (dramatizing to convey the differences in opinions, feel free to tone it down as you wish), I know that I would feel very differently about this situation. With this, I legitimately believe that I can trust a vast majority of cops. Like other beliefs, this is based in my upbringing and the small scope of my personal experience/the experiences of others that I have heard about. I also understand and realize that there are as many, if not more people in America who legitimately believe that cops are to be avoided, never trusted. Like other beliefs, this is based in their upbringing and the scope of their personal experience/the experiences of others that they have heard about. Possibly education, if they have studied this issue in depth from a variety of perspectives.

tl;dr: I (for lack of a better term) "side" with the cop because cops have been nice to me and I have no reason not to trust them. I am not particularly naive, or a dumbass, and am fully aware that there are probably more people who "side" with the girl for the opposite reason, and I don't think my belief is any more correct than theirs is. It's not a competition.

I was raised to believe this as well. I have never had any problems with police abusing their power with me. I would always do whatever I could to cooperate with the authorities.

However, I know that my experience is not universal. I am not so naive as to believe that because my experience has been X, then everyone else's must be that same experience as well.

None of this has anything to do with the fact that it is not OK to taser an unarmed child.

[justgo_withit]

Originally Posted by amIblue?

However, I know that my experience is not universal. I am not so naive as to believe that because my experience has been X, then everyone else's must be that same experience as well.

That's what I was saying when I said things like "I don't think my belief is any more correct than theirs is" and "this is not a competition". Also, the whole part where I explicitly state an alternate belief to mine and say that it's perfectly valid. Read that part. I feel like that makes it pretty clear that I don't think my experience is universal.
In more words: I never expect that my beliefs (which differ from opinions because I can't back them up with a solid layer of fact) are better, more correct, or consistent with anyone else's, nor do I expect them to be. What I believe has/should have literally no impact on what some random person believes, I was just sharing.

Opinions are very different though. I absolutely think my opinions should be shared by all. [/facetious]

Originally Posted by amIblue?

None of this has anything to do with the fact that it is not OK to taser an unarmed child.

Sure it does. I said "I'm more inclined to think that the officer's actions were acceptable and we'll hear that there's more to the story in support of him". An example of this sort of growing story would be that the "unidentified female" who (according to the cop, of course) also charged him is actually a strong adult woman and he was aiming the taser at her. Because tasers aren't very accurate, he missed.

[amIblue?]

Originally Posted by justgo_withit

Sure it does. I said "I'm more inclined to think that the officer's actions were acceptable and we'll hear that there's more to the story in support of him". An example of this sort of growing story would be that the "unidentified female" who (according to the cop, of course) also charged him is actually a strong adult woman and he was aiming the taser at her. Because tasers aren't very accurate, he missed.

So, if the officer wasn't intending to taser the child, and the child got caught in the crossfire, it's OK to accidentally taser a child?

[justgo_withit]

Originally Posted by amIblue?

So, if the officer wasn't intending to taser the child, and the child got caught in the crossfire, it's OK to accidentally taser a child?

What? That's like asking if it's okay to accidentally burn someone else's house down. The moral question (okayness) here depends on the intent. If (big 'ole hypothetical if) the officer, using the book-answer police moral compass and all of his training decided that yes, the woman needed to be tasered and he accidentally hit the child, then I wouldn't fault the police officer. Would it be absolutely unfortunate and would I look for the department to reevaluate their taser use policy? Absolutely. Accidents are accidents though, and cannot be totally controlled in the present. That's why they're accidents.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by justgo_withit

Sure it does. I said "I'm more inclined to think that the officer's actions were acceptable and we'll hear that there's more to the story in support of him". An example of this sort of growing story would be that the "unidentified female" who (according to the cop, of course) also charged him is actually a strong adult woman and he was aiming the taser at her. Because tasers aren't very accurate, he missed.

But that raises another issue -- is it okay to use a taser if there is a reasonable chance that someone other than the intended target will be tasered? If that someone else is 12 years old?

[justgo_withit]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

But that raises another issue -- is it okay to use a taser if there is a reasonable chance that someone other than the intended target will be tasered? If that someone else is 12 years old?

I have absolutely no experience with tasers and I have no idea. Tasers may actually be decently accurate and my hypothetical situation may be totally moot. Any taser aficionados in the house? Maybe there are degrees of scatter in tasers, like guns?

Going off of yours, if there is a reasonable chance that someone other than the intended target may be tasered, I would hope that tasers would be used as a last-resort weapon. This implies that the 12 year old is an innocent bystander though, which if course is to be determined here. (more perspective: I am absolutely awful at guessing ages, so I could see how someone would have no idea the girl was that young. Alternately, I'm not a cop and I would hope that they would be better than me at things like that.)

I really hope the truth isn't on either extreme of the scumbag cop/girl deserved it spectrum of possibilities, then this thread will have all been for naught

Originally Posted by MysticCat

No, it doesn't depend on intent. It goes to the police officer, using his training (including his training regarding the reliability of tasers accurately hitting their target) to determine whether the intended target can be safely hit without endangering others. It becomes a question of negligence, for which intent is irrelevant.

That's a great point, and I definitely see where you're coming from with this. I was looking at intent as an indication of okayness from more of a moral "is the cop a good or bad human being" perspective than a "is the cop a good or bad cop" one. Absolutely, if a cop is going around hitting innocent bystander children with his taser, regardless of his intent, he should not get to be a cop anymore.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

None of that range of positive and negative professional and personal experiences means that law enforcement practices are without question.

Of course not, nor did I imply that the population as a whole should blindly trust authority. My post said that because of my personal experiences, I am more inclined to believe that future developments will show that the officer made a good choice. Since this thread headed towards the hypothetical, it was an interesting connection that popped in my head.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by amIblue?

None of this has anything to do with the fact that it is not OK to taser an unarmed child.

Thank you.

My professional and personal experiences with police officers have been the same as with any other people in positions of power and influence. Some use it for good and some for bad. I have worked with police officers who are helpful and worked with police officers who are assholes. I have family and friends who have been victims of police brutality and racial profiling; and I have friends and family who have been protected, served, and rescued by police. None of that range of positive and negative professional and personal experiences means that law enforcement practices are without question.

[DrPhil]

Children being tased:

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/23017669/detail.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_1...59-504083.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,138488,00.html

http://articles.cnn.com/2004-11-14/u...icers?_s=PM:US

Random taser stuff:

http://jonathanturley.org/2010/01/14...demonstration/