The Murder of Trayvon Martin

[TonyB06]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

I understand what he's saying. No, he didn't deserve to die (and I suspect that Zimmerman would have found him "suspicious" in a 3-piece suit), but folks do need to be mindful of appearances if they don't want to be perceived a certain way.

So, if some one has an equally irrational aversion to white guys in collared shirts and ties, should the white guys take that into account when dressing?

I get your point. Personally, I detest the dumb-a$$, sagging, pants off your a$$ look. But until a law is passed outlawing it, guess what, I gotta get over it. People need to control their own aversions/fears unless and until someone steps to you or presents you with a clear and present danger.

By no account presented, even Zimmerman's, did Trayvon Martin do this. When all this started, Trayvon Martin had a right to be exactly where he was in the gated compound.

And now this organizational cowardice, this selective media leaking by law enforcement, the same outfit that let the shooter walk away, w/ gun in possession, without a breathalizer, without surrendering forensic evidence that is now irretrievable, is engaging in character assassination on Trayvon Martin with news of his school suspension, as if that had a da*n thing to do with his being shot dead in a Florida street on Feb. 26.

And yeah, while I support this protest and the pressure it's bringing, I'm equally troubled that we --Black people -- don't roll out like like this when intra-racial shootings occur, leaving other Black mothers to grieve their children. Let's protest and fix that.

this whole thing is troubling on levels I don't even wanna think about.

/end rant...for now.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by TonyB06

And yeah, while I support this protest and the pressure it's bringing, I'm equally troubled that we --Black people -- don't roll out like like this when intra-racial shootings occur, leaving other Black mothers to grieve their children. Let's protest and fix that.

I was waiting for someone to say this.

The attention and outrage will be different because the majority of person violence for all racial and ethnic groups is intraracial. Whites are more likely to be violently victimized by whites; Blacks are more likely to be violently victimized by Blacks; Asians are more likely to be violently victimized by Asians; Native Americans are more likely to be violently victimized by Native Americans; etc. That is about the victim-offender relationship in highly racially and social class segregated societies such as North America. The reason why interracial violence receives the attention that it does is because it is much less common than intraracial violence.

It is the equivalent of responding to public outrage over a murderer who identifies as Christian and who murders someone who identifies as Muslim by saying "I wish we would respond like this when Christians kill Christians." No, we would not because in North America, the majority of offenders and victims identify as Christian. When that is not the case, based on the relatively small percentage of Muslims in North America and the relative difficulty in the average North American Christian to have extensive exposure to Muslims in North America, there is a question over what motivated the offender to target and therefore victimize a nonChristian. That is one of the foundations for hate crime legislation because the person's group membership is what motivated the crime rather than what typically motivates offenders. In addition to a different motivation for crime, it typically takes more time and effort to target and victimize members of groups with whom the offender has relatively less interaction.

Similarly, males are most likely to be both the victim and the perpetrator for all crimes except for sexual assault and rape for which females are more likely to be the victims. Yet, people respond differently when a male offender robs a female than when a male offender robs a male. The outrage and fear for safety is not the same when discussing male-male violence and victimization. In fact, males report an extremely low fear of crime despite having the highest victimization for crimes except for sexual assault and rape.

If people want intragroup violence to be as shocking and appalling as intergroup violence, that's fine, but that requires an understanding of victim-offender dynamics. It is about much more than "Black people aren't outraged when we harm each other" as though that is completely accurate and unique to Black people.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by TonyB06

So, if some one has an equally irrational aversion to white guys in collared shirts and ties, should the white guys take that into account when dressing?

I get your point. Personally, I detest the dumb-a$$, sagging, pants off your a$$ look. But until a law is passed outlawing it, guess what, I gotta get over it. People need to control their own aversions/fears unless and until someone steps to you or presents you with a clear and present danger.

I know this was a rant, but that's not what I said. I agreed that some looks make certain impressions. I didn't say people deserve to die because of the way they dress.

[I2K Beta Mu]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

I understand what he's saying. No, he didn't deserve to die (and I suspect that Zimmerman would have found him "suspicious" in a 3-piece suit), but folks do need to be mindful of appearances if they don't want to be perceived a certain way.

I disagree. Dudes and females should be able to dress how they please. So if a female wore some revealing shit, she should be raped?

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by I2K Beta Mu

I disagree. Dudes and females should be able to dress how they please. So if a female wore some revealing shit, she should be raped?

Please reread what I've posted (twice).

No, you should not get raped or murdered because of what you wear, but we'd be lying to ourselves if we said appearances didn't matter. Otherwise, why dress up for a job interview? I could be the smartest and hardest-working person, but if I go to an interview in sweats and a dirty t-shirt, I'm not getting the job. THAT'S what I'm agreeing with.

I think if Geraldo had said this outside of the Trayvon Martin context, people wouldn't be making a fuss. It makes sense for him to say it, though, given that he's a media personality who relies on getting headlines in order to stay relevant.

[I2K Beta Mu]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

Please reread what I've posted (twice).

No, you should not get raped or murdered because of what you wear, but we'd be lying to ourselves if we said appearances didn't matter. Otherwise, why dress up for a job interview? I could be the smartest and hardest-working person, but if I go to an interview in sweats and a dirty t-shirt, I'm not getting the job. THAT'S what I'm agreeing with.

I think if Geraldo had said this outside of the Trayvon Martin context, people wouldn't be making a fuss. It makes sense for him to say it, though, given that he's a media personality who relies on getting headlines in order to stay relevant.

I feel you there, but dude wasn't on an interview so he should be able to dress how he pleases. Geraldo is full of shit as far as I'm concerned.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by I2K Beta Mu

I feel you there, but dude wasn't on an interview so he should be able to dress how he pleases. Geraldo is full of shit as far as I'm concerned.

Obviously, an interview is not the only place where you should be concerned with appearances. (General) You are grown, so dress however you want, but you can't get mad if you are stereotyped as a "hood" or "thug"

[I2K Beta Mu]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

Obviously, an interview is not the only place where you should be concerned with appearances. (General) You are grown, so dress however you want, but you can't get mad if you are stereotyped as a "hood" or "thug"

Folks are going to stereotype you regardless of what you wear. You can wear a Hugo Boss suit, but depending on how you are as a person, most folks will judge or stereotype you based on that alone. I don't really give a shit how folks stereotype me, because they're going to do that anyway.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by I2K Beta Mu

Folks are going to stereotype you regardless of what you wear. You can wear a Hugo Boss suit, but depending on how you are as a person, most folks will judge or stereotype you based on that alone. I don't really give a shit how folks stereotype me, because they're going to do that anyway.

Yes, some folks will stereotype regardless of your look (as I stated earlier, I'm willing to bet Zimmerman would have found Martin suspicious if he wasn't wearing the hoodie), but that doesn't mean you should happily run around perpetuating said stereotypes.

[I2K Beta Mu]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

Yes, some folks will stereotype regardless of your look (as I stated earlier, I'm willing to bet Zimmerman would have found Martin suspicious if he wasn't wearing the hoodie), but that doesn't mean you should happily run around perpetuating said stereotypes.

Like I said in my post, you should wear what you feel comfortable wearing (when you are on your own time) regardless of what folks say or think.

There is no excuse for what happened to that kid, point blank.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by I2K Beta Mu

Like I said in my post, you should wear what you feel comfortable wearing (when you are on your own time) regardless of what folks say or think.

Again, folks can do what they want, but just realize that it may or may not cause others to perceive you a certain way.

There is no excuse for what happened to that kid, point blank.

Agreed (as I said multiple times lol)

[Senusret I]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

Obviously, an interview is not the only place where you should be concerned with appearances. (General) You are grown, so dress however you want, but you can't get mad if you are stereotyped as a "hood" or "thug"

Yes, you can.

[DrPhil]

Wellllllllll, here's the thing about raising issues that are not central, the side issues become the topic. As with any discussion of opportunities and facilitating factors for crime and victim precipitation, the average person will be distracted from the main issue. Yes, how we look and our demeanor matter. Newsflash. How we look and our demeanor especially matter for power minority groups--i.e., women, racial and ethnic minorities, and GLBT--who have higher rates of victimization for certain types of offenses. Newsflash.

Zimmerman's attorney is betting on this newsflash becoming the main topic because people cannot multitask and are easily sidetracked. Instead of problematizing the potential offender, the potential victim is problematized. The topic has now become what Martin was wearing, whether he was suspended from school a few times, and whether there was a trace of marijuana on one of his school bags weeks ago. What in the samhell does that have to do with anything? Well, they are saying that Martin was a bad kid (read: typical Black male youth who should not have been in that gated community in ther first place--or at least should have been wearing a 3-piece suit to buffer the effects of his badassness). Moreover, they will present it as Martin is the one who was violent toward Zimmerman. Zimmerman was therefore "standing his ground." However, it is also the case that Martin could have been "standing his ground." But, that will not fly in the eyes of the law (I don't care about public opinion) if Martin is portrayed as a weed-selling kid who kept getting in trouble at school for walking on hallways he was not supposed to walk on and so forth.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

Yes, some folks will stereotype regardless of your look (as I stated earlier, I'm willing to bet Zimmerman would have found Martin suspicious if he wasn't wearing the hoodie), but that doesn't mean you should happily run around perpetuating said stereotypes.

Exactly and that is the problem.

You have a freedom but you ALSO have a responsibility.

Part of what bothers me about our younger kids coming up today is that some are not being TAUGHT that they are already stereotyped by looks alone and BY ACTING OUT those stereotypes they further along those stereotypes.

[TonyB06]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Wellllllllll, here's the thing about raising issues that are not central, the side issues become the topic. ...

Zimmerman's attorney is betting on this newsflash becoming the main topic because people cannot multitask and are easily sidetracked. Instead of problematizing the potential offender, the potential victim is problematized. The topic has now become what Martin was wearing, whether he was suspended from school a few times, and whether there was a trace of marijuana on one of his school bags weeks ago. .....

Who decides what the "main" issues are? This is what I was saying in my earlier response to k_s. That's why I used the absurd example of whether white guys should be worried if tomorrow morning everyone else in America woke up and was suddenly "apprehensive" about the "ominous look" of white guys in ties?

It's that absurdity that has some people obliquely making Trayvon somehow culpable in his own death becuase of how he was dressed.

Whether he called himself a "no limit nigga" on his twitter page is irrelevant;
whether he got suspended for marijauana use is irrelevant. The boy had the right to get back to his daddy's house alive. Period.

I'm up to >>here<< this week with people's "impressions." Feel however you want to feel about people's attire, but if you can't deal with your impressions then stay your a$$ in the house.