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  #1  
Old 12-06-2010, 05:39 PM
Kevin Kevin is offline
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Originally Posted by MysticCat View Post
Hypergeneralize much? I'll admit it: When I see a statement like this, I assume the speaker is speaking from significant bias, not facts, and is therefore not worth paying attention to.
Well, the statement was rhetorical rather than a statement of fact. And suggesting that the government lies to its people (and often) is something we know is a fact.

I can't imagine how we can really function as a free and Republican society if the government is not held accountable for lying to the people.

As far as the comment, it seems to be the case that back in August, one of your chief objections to the Iraq documents leak was that it would put soldiers in harm's way. It hasn't been documented to have done that yet, so wouldn't it be prudent to label the government's predictions for gore and death due to these leaks was more spin than reality?

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This may well be true, so far at least. My problem is that I have absolutely no confidence in someone like Assange making judgments about what might or might not put people at risk. At least the military and the State Department are the people who, in our system, have been given the responsibility for making the judgments, and who have (or should have) access to all information relevant to making an informed judgment.
To hell with the system. If the system is not serving our interests, it's not a system worth having.
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  #2  
Old 12-06-2010, 05:42 PM
Alumiyum Alumiyum is offline
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Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
Well, the statement was rhetorical rather than a statement of fact. And suggesting that the government lies to its people (and often) is something we know is a fact.

I can't imagine how we can really function as a free and Republican society if the government is not held accountable for lying to the people.

As far as the comment, it seems to be the case that back in August, one of your chief objections to the Iraq documents leak was that it would put soldiers in harm's way. It hasn't been documented to have done that yet, so wouldn't it be prudent to label the government's predictions for gore and death due to these leaks was more spin than reality?



To hell with the system. If the system is not serving our interests, it's not a system worth having.
Or it's entirely possible we haven't heard anything because the powers that be adapted to the situation and avoided any potential pit falls.

The system is absolutely serving our interests if its protecting us, and that includes sometimes withholding information.
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  #3  
Old 12-06-2010, 05:50 PM
MysticCat MysticCat is offline
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Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
As far as the comment, it seems to be the case that back in August, one of your chief objections to the Iraq documents leak was that it would put soldiers in harm's way.
No, my objection was that it might put soldiers (or others) in harm's way and that I do not trust someone like Assange to make the decisions about whether that outcome is likely or not or possible or not.

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It hasn't been documented to have done that yet, so wouldn't it be prudent to label the government's predictions for gore and death due to these leaks was more spin than reality?
No, I don't think that's prudent. I think that's more dismissive and biased than prudent.

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To hell with the system. If the system is not serving our interests, it's not a system worth having.
If we determine that the system isn't serving our interests, then we change the system. We don't, I hope, rely on vigilantes with no accountability to anyone.
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  #4  
Old 12-06-2010, 05:52 PM
ASTalumna06 ASTalumna06 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
As far as the comment, it seems to be the case that back in August, one of your chief objections to the Iraq documents leak was that it would put soldiers in harm's way. It hasn't been documented to have done that yet, so wouldn't it be prudent to label the government's predictions for gore and death due to these leaks was more spin than reality?
So your logic reads:

The government told us that a possible outcome was this.
This didn't happen.
Therefore, the government is full of shit.

That's like saying to a skydiver, "If you jump out of this plane, you might die."
The skydiver doesn't die.
Then he comes back bitching at you because you supposedly lied to him.
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  #5  
Old 12-06-2010, 09:39 PM
starang21 starang21 is offline
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Originally Posted by KSig RC View Post
but if our best efforts to keep those areas safe were "hope the enemy doesn't know/figure out the importance!" then the areas were never truly safe to begin with.
i akin it to hiding in plain sight.
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  #6  
Old 12-07-2010, 02:45 PM
KSig RC KSig RC is offline
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i akin it to hiding in plain sight.
Right - which worked beautifully in The Purloined Letter, but shouldn't be a standard operating practice for national security, at least in my opinion - it's too clever by at least half.
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  #7  
Old 12-06-2010, 06:01 PM
PiKA2001 PiKA2001 is offline
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The Wikileaks, IMHO, are damaging to U.S./foreign relations in the sense that certain ambassadors/diplomats may refrain from being so candid with us in the future due to fear of a leak. That could end up having disastrous consequences. It also makes the U.S. look negligent in securing classified info.

Other than that, Wikileaks seem to be all show, no go. I also fail to see how any of the released documents "help" Americans or foreign nationals. More people Seem to be enchanted with the fact Assange leaked the docs, not necessarily with the content itself. Where's the good stuff at? The documents that talk about how rising cancer rates in the 20th century were linked to the polio vaccine, or the CIA cable giving the order to kill JFK or MLK JR?
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  #8  
Old 12-06-2010, 06:15 PM
KSig RC KSig RC is offline
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Originally Posted by PiKA2001 View Post
The Wikileaks, IMHO, are damaging to U.S./foreign relations in the sense that certain ambassadors/diplomats may refrain from being so candid with us in the future due to fear of a leak. That could end up having disastrous consequences. It also makes the U.S. look negligent in securing classified info.
As far as I know, none of the information was actually Classified - that may be purely semantic, or may be important, but I have no idea which (and I'm not at all qualified to say).

Regardless, I see what you're saying - on the other hand, the leaks actually did happen, so it's sort of the tail wagging the dog on some level ... if the leaks make it look like there is the possibility of leaks, well ...

Quote:
Other than that, Wikileaks seem to be all show, no go. I also fail to see how any of the released documents "help" Americans or foreign nationals. More people Seem to be enchanted with the fact Assange leaked the docs, not necessarily with the content itself. Where's the good stuff at? The documents that talk about how rising cancer rates in the 20th century were linked to the polio vaccine, or the CIA cable giving the order to kill JFK or MLK JR?
This is a really good point, and kind of what I'm getting at.

A more-open US military/gov't/etc. really removes the power from future dickfaces dealing in leaked information, especially stupid minutiae or "startling" revelations like citizen deaths in a bombing run.

These things could easily have no teeth - but people love to feel like they're seeing the smoking gun, or something top-secret that they're not supposed to have. See: the website by that very name, TMZ, how the tobacco industry lost 50 yrs worth of profits, the popularity of CSI, and late-model Oliver Stone.
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  #9  
Old 12-06-2010, 06:33 PM
PiKA2001 PiKA2001 is offline
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Originally Posted by KSig RC View Post
As far as I know, none of the information was actually Classified - that may be purely semantic, or may be important, but I have no idea which (and I'm not at all qualified to say).

Regardless, I see what you're saying - on the other hand, the leaks actually did happen, so it's sort of the tail wagging the dog on some level ... if the leaks make it look like there is the possibility of leaks, well ...
They were all classified. AFAIK it was an Army PFC who forwarded to documents to Wikileaks. Apparently he just copied every file he could acess to an external drive and sent it in to wiki. Im on my phone so it'd be a pain to look it up. I hear the government wants to slap treason charges against him. Good for them. If they can prove this kid joined the military just to gain acess to sensitive info so he could disseminate or sell it illegally, he's screwed.
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  #10  
Old 12-06-2010, 06:36 PM
KSig RC KSig RC is offline
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Originally Posted by PiKA2001 View Post
They were all classified. AFAIK it was an Army PFC who forwarded to documents to Wikileaks. Apparently he just copied every file he could acess to an external drive and sent it in to wiki. Im on my phone so it'd be a pain to look it up. I hear the government wants to slap treason charges against him. Good for them. If they can prove this kid joined the military just to gain acess to sensitive info so he could disseminate or sell it illegally, he's screwed.
My bad - I might be confusing the diplomatic cables with the whole? No idea.

Last edited by KSig RC; 12-07-2010 at 02:54 PM.
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  #11  
Old 12-06-2010, 06:09 PM
Kevin Kevin is offline
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There's plenty there. It's just that we're so desensitized to all of the bad stuff which goes on and that no one is ever held accountable, that we just don't care.

It's also that there's just so darn much that it's tough to focus on any one thing. Do you think the video of the American helicopter killing civilians in Afghanistan was something that needed to be covered up?
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  #12  
Old 12-06-2010, 09:49 PM
Psi U MC Vito Psi U MC Vito is offline
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ON the classfication matter, IIRC wikileaks said that they were all at least confidential classification with a large number classified secret. And I'm glad they are prosecuting the soldier, but the question is, does this meet the definition of treason?
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  #13  
Old 12-07-2010, 12:56 AM
PiKA2001 PiKA2001 is offline
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Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito View Post
ON the classfication matter, IIRC wikileaks said that they were all at least confidential classification with a large number classified secret. And I'm glad they are prosecuting the soldier, but the question is, does this meet the definition of treason?
Treason
–noun
1.the offense of acting to overthrow one's government or to harm or kill its sovereign.
2. a violation of allegiance to one's sovereign or to one's state.
3. the betrayal of a trust or confidence; breach of faith; treachery.
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  #14  
Old 12-06-2010, 10:44 PM
AGDee AGDee is offline
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I will leave it to the legal eagles to figure out whether Assange's initial acts were criminal or not. Ethics is a whole nother ball game though and this was definitely unethical. His recent threats border on extortion in my mind though. I wonder how long he can stay in hiding. He seems to be acting exactly like those he purports to expose.
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  #15  
Old 12-07-2010, 01:09 AM
Psi U MC Vito Psi U MC Vito is offline
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I meant the legal definition in the Constitution.
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