Race & Sororities

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

Oh - silly me!

I take credit cards and money orders. No personal checks. And youuuu knowwww whyyyyy.

(If anyone knows what commercial that comes from, you rock.)

[libramunoz]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

The general pattern exists across region, discipline, and graduate program. General patterns aren't meant to apply to 100% of the cases.

Let's take disciplines like social work and the social sciences, in general, which had a sharp increase in minorities and women over the last 30 years. Social work, for example, is now considered a non-traditional field for men, which now translates to it being one of the lower paying specializations for women depending on the research, teaching, and practitioner base.

Even with the increase in women and minorities, there are (women and racial and ethnic) minority faculty and student organizations to serves as networking tools, and to address concerns. Many of these faculty feel they are unable to climb the ranks in white and/or white male dominated field and/or department. Part of that is because most of these women and racial and ethnic minorities aren't the key decision makers. Students often don't notice that a lot of the diverse faces they see are either adjunct, nontenured full-time faculty, and are overworked and underpaid in comparison to the other faculty in the department and/or university. Even the tenured minority faculty often don't become department heads and graduate directors--unless the departments have no other alternatives--they often don't have a voice in the department and are on the sidelines doing research/teaching/mentoring.

I'd beg to differ with you on this. Within the Social Work field when you state, "...which now translates to it being one of the lower paying specializations for women depending on the research, teaching, and practitioner base. " it's acutally very misleading to say such a statement. For the simple fact, that when you are within this field and a private practitioner base, you actually set your own prices as to what it is that you specialize in. Moreover, research within this field is done on a daily basis, particularly by minority men and women within this field. As far as teaching, it depends on where you go, if you are at a Liberal Arts school or if you are at a Private or Public School setting. Believe me, if you are at a school that specializes Social Work, you will see a variety of professors, from a variety of backgrounds teaching you your Social Work courses.

Furthermore, Social Work was never a high paying job in certain sectors of society to begin with. This was always considered a "woman's job" the same as let's say nursing or teaching. However, for those who got into Social Work, they know from the jump, expecting to make $100,000 a year really isn't a reliable way of thinking and you'll be surely dissapointed by your first paycheck. If you ask any Social Worker why they jumped into this type of job, and you'll have varying answers, however, the primary answer that you'll hear is "I love to help people."

Depending on what field you are working with in Social Work, it will determine what you are going to make. Depending on where you live, it will determine what you are going to make. Depending on what you are specializing in, it will again, determine what you are going to make. Depending on what you wanna do with your degree, what you're licensing is, etc., it will all determine what it is that you'll make. Further, the biggest dependence is if you are working for a NPO, FPO, State agency, Private agency, self. Things all depend.

Moreover, when you state, "Many of these faculty feel they are unable to climb the ranks in white and/or white male dominated field and/or department. Part of that is because most of these women and racial and ethnic minorities aren't the key decision makers. Students often don't notice that a lot of the diverse faces they see are either adjunct, nontenured full-time faculty, and are overworked and underpaid in comparison to the other faculty in the department and/or university." again, it's not necessarily true.

Social Work was NEVER a field that was white and male dominated to begin with. It was started as a "Do-gooder Society" in the late 1900's by Jane Addams. It was started as a philothranthapy (?) service organization to specifically help those orphans that were in the NY, Boston, and Chicago sides that were stemming from immigrants that died and left children behind. Moreover, it was specifically started in order to help the children and either place them with families that would "take them in" or within an orphanage setting that would continue to aid the children while teaching them a vocation through apprenticeships (?) which was primarily based off of the Elizabethan Poor Laws of 1608.

When you state, "Students often don't notice that a lot of the diverse faces they see are either adjunct, nontenured full-time faculty, and are overworked and underpaid in comparison to the other faculty in the department and/or university" it's hard to say that this is true or not unless you have specifically gone to schools that deal with Social Work or have Social Work within their cirriculum. Having seen this from both perspectives, believe me, when you are going to these schools, you don't care who is teaching you what, you're just trying to finish reading the ton of crap they give you, do your paper, and graduate before you blow something up. Yes, you know that you have crazy as hell professors that you just wanna slap the stuffing out of, but you always realize that this is true wherever you go.
And actually at a school of Social Work, again, you will see, tenured, non-tenured, full-time, adjunct faculty that are there within a diverse ethnical background. A lot depends on where you are going to school.

When you stated, "Even the tenured minority faculty often don't become department heads and graduate directors--unless the departments have no other alternatives--they often don't have a voice in the department and are on the sidelines doing research/teaching/mentoring" it's not necessarily true. I've seen department heads that were of all colors, races, and backgrounds. It wasn't necessarily to do "no other alternatives" but due to the fact that they had the expertise and that was what the school was looking for. Because Social Work is usually within a broader scope of the "Humanities Division" of some schools, those within the department do have to stick together. Of course, people will have disagreements, however, within such a small department, their voice can be heard and it usually is.

[DrPhil]

Woman, here's how you quote particular parts of a post without torturing everyone with in-text quotation marks.

Originally Posted by libramunoz

For the simple fact, that when you are within this field and a private practitioner base, you actually set your own prices as to what it is that you specialize in.

Yes, for private or practitioner base and it will be based on a "going rate," which can still be lower paying in relation to other more-male dominated fields. As you said later, it was never a high paying field and many were drawn to it to "help people."

Beyond that, the field of social work encompasses a wide range of overworked and overpaid occupations beyond private and practitioner base.

Originally Posted by libramunoz

As far as teaching, it depends on where you go, if you are at a Liberal Arts school or if you are at a Private or Public School setting. Believe me, if you are at a school that specializes Social Work, you will see a variety of professors, from a variety of backgrounds teaching you your Social Work courses.

I am talking about trends that aren't erased depending on where you go. As I said, general patterns aren't meant to apply 100%, but more often than not. Apply that to every instance that you consider makes my statements "not necessarily true" or "depends...."

Originally Posted by libramunoz

Furthermore, Social Work was never a high paying job in certain sectors of society to begin with.

So, it didn't become that way with the increase in women in various occupations that employ social workers. It was always that way. Gender implications for female dominated fields and certain job types, perhaps?

Originally Posted by libramunoz

This was always considered a "woman's job" the same as let's say nursing or teaching. However, for those who got into Social Work, they know from the jump, expecting to make $100,000 a year really isn't a reliable way of thinking and you'll be surely dissapointed by your first paycheck. If you ask any Social Worker why they jumped into this type of job, and you'll have varying answers, however, the primary answer that you'll hear is "I love to help people."

Regardless of whether you are a social worker, if you haven't done so, skim through "Women in Social Work" by Ronald Walton. The perceived need for a (insert minority group) book for a field means there's something to discuss even if a large % (and the more visible) social workers are women. Again, social work encompasses a lot of occupations and range of salaries. In many organizations that employ social workers, the higher ranking persons are male. That may be correlated with the disctinction between administrative capacities versus practitioners; academicians and researchers versus (insert occupation); or where you work, such as in a state prison versus in public school system (which can also have gender implications).

I don't feel that you really disagree with me. But, when all else fails, just remove "social work" from my post and see the general point regarding the social sciences.

[libramunoz]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Woman, here's how you quote particular parts of a post without torturing everyone with in-text quotation marks.



Yes, for private or practitioner base and it will be based on a "going rate," which can still be lower paying in relation to other more-male dominated fields. As you said later, it was never a high paying field and many were drawn to it to "help people."

Beyond that, the field of social work encompasses a wide range of overworked and overpaid occupations beyond private and practitioner base.




I am talking about trends that aren't erased depending on where you go. As I said, general patterns aren't meant to apply 100%, but more often than not. Apply that to every instance that you consider makes my statements "not necessarily true" or "depends...."



So, it didn't become that way with the increase in women in various occupations that employ social workers. It was always that way. Gender implications for female dominated fields and certain job types, perhaps?



Regardless of whether you are a social worker, if you haven't done so, skim through "Women in Social Work" by Ronald Walton. The perceived need for a (insert minority group) book for a field means there's something to discuss even if a large % (and the more visible) social workers are women. Again, social work encompasses a lot of occupations and range of salaries. In many organizations that employ social workers, the higher ranking persons are male. That may be correlated with the disctinction between administrative capacities versus practitioners; academicians and researchers versus (insert occupation); or where you work, such as in a state prison versus in public school system (which can also have gender implications).

I don't feel that you really disagree with me. But, when all else fails, just remove "social work" from my post and see the general point regarding the social sciences.

I only want to torture those I love!

However, in saying "Again, social work encompasses a lot of occupations and range of salaries. In many organizations that employ social workers, the higher ranking persons are male. That may be correlated with the disctinction between administrative capacities versus practitioners; academicians and researchers versus (insert occupation); or where you work, such as in a state prison versus in public school system (which can also have gender implications)." it's actually not the truth of the matter. Why, because this field is actually a female dominated to begin with. Therefore, within this field, those that are "higher ranking persons" are actually female. This is something that I have seen and know to be true more than once. There doesn't tend to be a distiction between what capacity they are working in, yet, it's just the way that it happens to be.

Yes, the stigma attached to doing Social Work for males is beginning to change (this change began in the late 1960s and early 1970s), it is still a stigma attached to it as far as being a male within this sector.
As far as skimming through "Women in Social Work" by Ronald Walton" I found it rather dry to my taste. I prefer Zastrow's work on many levels.

Again, the pay rate for Social Work does vary. However, within any job, you'll find people that are over worked and underpaid, it's just a factor of life. However, when you say, "Yes, for private or practitioner base and it will be based on a "going rate," which can still be lower paying in relation to other more-male dominated fields." you have to look at the fact of where you are and what that person is charging for their services. You can be within direct practice or as a consultant or as a director, it all depends on what that private practitioner is doing and what they specialize in. Specialization and licensing is the biggest factor in being able to determine the rate of pay. However, it's just not a comparison to "other more-male dominated fields" it has to do with the issue specialization of services, continuum of services, place of services, and time of services that are involved. It also has a lot to do with the types of therapy that are provided to the patient and the types of therapy that the clinician specializes in.

Just to let you know, "Beyond that, the field of social work encompasses a wide range of overworked and overpaid occupations beyond private and practitioner base." that private and practitioner are one in the same within the field of Social Work. Yes, this field does encompass a wide range of overworked and UNDERpaid positions within this field. However, so do MANY, MANY, MANY other fields of work, and this isn't just the lone dog out here wagging it's tail for the comforts of others.

However, when you say, "I am talking about trends that aren't erased depending on where you go. As I said, general patterns aren't meant to apply 100%, but more often than not. Apply that to every instance that you consider makes my statements "not necessarily true" or "depends...."" in regards to Social Work, you actually are. It is about where you go or have gone that determines what you will see and where. Ex: if you go to San Antonio and Our Lady of the Lake University, there is Worden School of Social Work, if you go to Byrn Mawer, it's specifically a school of Social Work, if you go to the University of Texas at Arlington, they have a specific school of Social Work, if you go to Clark-Atlanta University and Howard University, they have specific schools of Social Work. However, if you go to, let's say, LeMoyne-Owen College, their Social Work program is within their Humanities or Social Sciences Division, if you go to Tuskegee University or Talladega College, their Social Work program is within their Humanities Division, if you go to Trinity University, their Social Work program is within a Division of the college, it's not a separate entity from the school. Therefore, what I am saying is that depending on where you go, you will see a variety of faculty in a variety of positions.

Again, when you say, "So, it didn't become that way with the increase in women in various occupations that employ social workers. It was always that way. Gender implications for female dominated fields and certain job types, perhaps" it is that way, to a certain extent, but I didn't make the system. As the saying goes, "I'm just a squirrel trying to get a nut in this world." This is a field that was started by women, I don't know what to tell you. Read Charles Zastrow's "Introduction to Social Work" or for those in this field, The Social Worker's Guide 101. It truly explains how this field got started and why it was started. Since this is a field that was started by women, women tend to be at the forefront of making and maintaining the changes within this field. Moreover, this isn't the ONLY field where there are "gender implications" for those that work it. If you looked in the construction field, you expect to see men, and yet, there are female constructions workers. The field of chemistry was thought to be "male dominated" until Madame Curie brought herself along. The field of psychology was thought to be "male dominated" due to Freud's crazy tail, that was until Satir, Hartman, and others came along and busted right through that ceiling. So the fact of the matter is that in many fields, "gender implications" are there from jump-street, you either learn to bust-through or cause others to move to make the room.

Well yes, there was some disagreement because I am within the field of Social Work and have been doing it over 12 years. I understand what Social Work is about and to apply something general within this field, if you have a limited background understanding of it, it's not an easy thing to compare. I cannot remove "Social Work" from the post and apply it to the general point of the Social Sciences because it doesn't work within this manner. Either you're talking about Social Work, Sociology, Gerontology, Behavioral Psychology, or Psychology within itself.

These are very different aspects of the Social Sciences in of themselves. It's like a guy who had a Sociology degree telling me that he understood what being a Social Worker was about because "we studied the same things." No we didn't, we studied SOME of the same things, but there is a vast difference from Social Work to Sociology. Again, you can't make a general statement about the field of Social Work and expect it to apply to an argument where it doesn't fit.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by libramunoz

I only want to torture those I love!

Clearly.

http://workforce.socialworkers.org/s...act_female.asp http://workforce.socialworkers.org/s...eet_female.pdf

http://workforce.socialworkers.org/s..._fact_male.asp http://workforce.socialworkers.org/s...sheet_male.pdf

(The sample of women licensed social workers was substantially larger than that for men. Yet....)

[GAgalBamabound]

im in the same boat as you! except im going to bama.
im gonna rush, and not care what other people think. if anything, its gonna be a great way to meet people before school starts. ( i know ole miss has rush during the school year) Be yourself, dont try to be something youre not. If its meant to be, great, if not, dont worry about it. There are so many organizations you can join and be apart of on campus. You dont haveee to be in a sorority to have fun, but yes they are great for networking and social occassions on campus. Put your best foot forward all through rush, and show them who you really are. Dont focus on whether or not they are judging you.

I went to panhellenic weekend and some girls told me I would have a better chance with the NPHCs and others told me to go for it.
...Aint nothing to it but to do it :P

Plus...youre going to school in the SEC..what more could you ask for?
See ya when we beat yall AT HOME! (football)..with or without a sorority sticker

It's good to know i'm not the only one!
hmm... i don't remember hearing about a pan-weekend at ole miss.
but other schools are doing it.
maybe i just missed it :/
i'm to the point where i'd love to be in one but it won't make or break me.
i'm excited for the new opportunity and i'm going to give it all i've got.

and uhhh...
you seem like a WONDERFUL person.
but that 3 point win last year was a flukeee!
won't happen again

Originally Posted by GAgalBamabound

im in the same boat as you! except im going to bama.
im gonna rush, and not care what other people think. if anything, its gonna be a great way to meet people before school starts. ( i know ole miss has rush during the school year) Be yourself, dont try to be something youre not. If its meant to be, great, if not, dont worry about it. There are so many organizations you can join and be apart of on campus. You dont haveee to be in a sorority to have fun, but yes they are great for networking and social occassions on campus. Put your best foot forward all through rush, and show them who you really are. Dont focus on whether or not they are judging you.

I went to panhellenic weekend and some girls told me I would have a better chance with the NPHCs and others told me to go for it.
...Aint nothing to it but to do it :P

Plus...youre going to school in the SEC..what more could you ask for?
See ya when we beat yall AT HOME! (football)..with or without a sorority sticker

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

And, in my experience, sometimes those same chapter members (the ones who are not discreet) are the same ones who really don't know what they are talking about - they may run around saying "We didn't bid So-n-so because she is black", but 1.) this is a stupid person, so take everything she says with a grain of salt and 2.) that may have been discussed, but ultimately it comes down to a vote, and no one can say with 100% certainty why their sisters chose to vote the way they did - yet another reason to NEVER DISCUSS MEMBERSHIP SELECTION.

Would a person who goes around saying that really be stupid or just honest? No offense, but it gets really ridiculous in certain situations when people try to pretend like people really don't know why someone wasn't picked. In many cases it IS racism, but it is that subtle racism that will never actually be acknowledged. In my opinion that is the most dangerous type of racism because there's nothing you can do about it. I would rather deal with the person who is admitting that they turned someone down because of their race than someone who acts all prim and proper and polite while lying through their teeth. And in the case of these types of sororities, they hide behind the membership selection process and often point to other white women who weren't selected as if that really proves anything. No, all white women won't get into the predominately white sororities. I don't think anyone is crazy enough to believe that. However, when you have chapters or entire organizations that never have black members, that tells the story in and of itself because you can't sit there and honestly say that there have NEVER been any qualified black women.

As far as the OP, it sounds like she has other issues going on within herself concerning her racial identity. She doesn't want to join a "black" sorority because she doesn't want to "limit" herself, but now it sounds like she wants to join a predominately white sorority. That's not equally limiting?

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

As far as the OP, it sounds like she has other issues going on within herself concerning her racial identity. She doesn't want to join a "black" sorority because she doesn't want to "limit" herself, but now it sounds like she wants to join a predominately white sorority. That's not equally limiting?

Hi
I'm a bi-racial (black/white) female attending Ole Miss in the fall. I want to rush, but I don't want to limit myself to historically black sororities. Is race a deciding factor in most sororities? Are any of you members of sororities with members of a race other than the majority?

Any advice or information will be greatly appreciated.

as you can see i never said i didn't want to join a black sororities...
i said i don't want to limit myself.
as in i want a chance at more than 4 organizations.

but to give you a better understanding of why i would like to try for more than just those 4:

i've always gone to predominantly white schools.
the majority of my friends are white (the black kids thought i was weird because i "acted white." but that's an inside issue?)
i've always been myself.
i've always acted the same... i uphold the things my BLACK family taught me...

so i can assure you i'm perfectly fine with my race... i know who i am... but i've never been one to sit around and follow the norm.

[please don't take this as me being rude because that's not my intention... but as a whole (i'm not saying all), i've not been accepted within the african-american community because of my PERSONALITY...]
i want to be somewhere that i'll fit in and not have to monitor my natural personality...

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by UMryanne13

Hi
I'm a bi-racial (black/white) female attending Ole Miss in the fall. I want to rush, but I don't want to limit myself to historically black sororities. Is race a deciding factor in most sororities? Are any of you members of sororities with members of a race other than the majority?

Any advice or information will be greatly appreciated.

as you can see i never said i didn't want to join a black sororities...
i said i don't want to limit myself.
as in i want a chance at more than 4 organizations.

but to give you a better understanding of why i would like to try for more than just those 4:

i've always gone to predominantly white schools.
the majority of my friends are white (the black kids thought i was weird because i "acted white." but that's an inside issue?)
i've always been myself.
i've always acted the same... i uphold the things my BLACK family taught me...

so i can assure you i'm perfectly fine with my race... i know who i am... but i've never been one to sit around and follow the norm.

[please don't take this as me being rude because that's not my intention... but as a whole (i'm not saying all), i've not been accepted within the african-american community because of my PERSONALITY...]
i want to be somewhere that i'll fit in and not have to monitor my natural personality...

Your story isn't unique. And yes, in my opinion it sounds like you simply want to join a white sorority and you came here to have someone tell you that they won't discriminate against you. Personally I think you may be setting yourself up for heartache. From my experience black and bi-racial women have a difficult time joining white sororities....especially in the South. Some people get angry when you say that, or deny it to the fullest, but that doesn't mean it isn't true. Racism is alive and well and in these situations it is often hidden. It's done in a very subtle and genteel way.

As far as your claims about not being accepted by the African-American community, I think I will stay away from that. Suffice it to say I think it's BS and your explanation kind of gives that away.

At any rate, you should check out ALL of the sororities...including the black ones....instead of just automatically shying away from them.

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

As far as your claims about not being accepted by the African-American community, I think I will stay away from that. Suffice it to say I think it's BS and your explanation kind of gives that away.

At any rate, you should check out ALL of the sororities...including the black ones....instead of just automatically shying away from them.

Gee you're a nice person.

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

Gee you're a nice person.

Gee thanks.

[BabyPiNK_FL]

She has the right to pursue the organizations of her choosing. She understands that she may be at a disadvantage and was seeking the advice of those who may have dealt with similar situations.

I had some of the same problems the OP discribes and chose to pursue what at most schools (not mine) is an extremely "historically white" sorority with people who were more similar to those I dealt with growing up, etc. If they choose not to accept you for who you are, at least you made an effort and know that it wasn't meant to be (regardless of the reason). You can choose your next step at that time. You can not change you race so do not focus on it, rather, focus on what helping others potentially realize that you may make an amazing sister.

[KSUViolet06]

Also, I love the implication that NPCs are the only sororities in which there are race issues. Original.

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

Also, I love the implication that NPCs are the only sororities in which there are race issues. Original.

It's not about it being original. From what I gathered she wanted to know about whether she would have problems with predominately white sororities. So naturally the discussion would flow in that vein. That's not implying that NPC's are the only sororities in which there are race issues. I believe that if a white woman asked about her chances of joining a black sorority, race issues concerning NPHC's would be brought up.

Nice try though.