No communion for Obama supporters

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

But surely you wouldn't apply this same standard to murder of a 20 year old or even a two day old? If you don't believe in it, don't kill anyone, but don't tell me I can't?

This is where I'm coming from. You should know better. You shouldn't need a law to tell you and, if you don't know better, you can take it up with God. I think I'm an anarchist.

Originally Posted by 1744482

Now, I think it's probably a minority of citizens who think life begins at conception or we wouldn't be so down with IVF, embryonic stem cell research, and some IUDs as we are. I think the debate ought to shift to when a fetus ought to have some rights.

You're on the right track here. I believe that a number of other countries (including Canada if I'm not mistaken) have set an actual week date - 22 weeks for example - as the time when the baby has rights and can no longer be aborted.

I'd also like to see adoption become less stressful for all involved...however that could occur.

[Jill1228]

Originally Posted by aephi alum

Oh for crying out loud.

It's crap like this that drove me away from the Catholic Church 15 years ago. The Church tries to dictate its members' choices - which is fine and dandy if you happen to agree with Church doctrine, and not so pleasant if you don't. No premarital sex, no birth control, no abortion, no homosexuality and no voting for any candidate who supports abortion rights or anything else the Church doesn't like.

Also, I thought clergy weren't supposed to dictate to their congregants how they should vote? If they do, they risk losing their tax-exempt status.

Girlfriend, you said it!
Yeah I read the article...and douchebags like this are one reason why I call myself a Recovering Catholic.

Originally Posted by alphagamzetagam

How does the Catholic Church feel about reduction if one is having multiples (for instance, if you're pregnant with sextuplets and can only feasibly carry a couple of the babies).

Although it's really rare for a woman to be pregnant with that kind of multiples without modern medicine making it so - does the Catholic Church have a stance against fertility treatments?

Fertility treatments are a no-no, and this hits too close to home.
Another reason I call myself a recovering Catholic

I'm also strongly pro-choice. If you're against abortion, fine - don't have one - but don't go telling me I can't have one.

Yeah that! And yes, I marched on Washington

[irishpipes]

But AEPhiAlum, you have consciously made the choice to leave the Church, as has Jill and countless others. Why should it it surprise or anger you that this priest, or anyone still within the Church, said what he said? It seems that your issue isn't really this priest, but rather the teachings of the Church.

[aephi alum]

Originally Posted by irishpipes

But AEPhiAlum, you have consciously made the choice to leave the Church, as has Jill and countless others. Why should it it surprise or anger you that this priest, or anyone still within the Church, said what he said? It seems that your issue isn't really this priest, but rather the teachings of the Church.

It doesn't surprise me at all.

If you choose to be Catholic, you choose to accept everything that goes with being Catholic. That includes forgoing premarital sex, birth control, abortion, and IVF. You personally won't engage in these practices.

But that doesn't mean that you have to actively pursue legislation (and by extension, legislators and executives who will support such legislation) that will prevent people who don't share Catholic views from obtaining safe birth control and abortion for those who do not want children, and IVF for those who want children but can't conceive without medical intervention.

Pro-choice is exactly that: pro-CHOICE. No one is forcing pregnant women to line up for abortions. Pregnant women can choose for themselves whether to abort, carry to term and keep the baby, or carry to term and place the baby for adoption. And if they choose to abort, it's legal and safe. No back-alley abortions that land women in hospitals with severe sepsis, and no one forced to go through with a pregnancy she does not want.

[PeppyGPhiB]

What does this priest think of people who supported McCain, who is a strong supporter of the death penalty, even wanting to expand it to crimes other than murder? I don't understand how someone can be "pro-life" and yet so pro-capital punishment. If one considers abortion murder, surely he/she must agree that killing a living human being outside of the womb is murder. Is it really our job to pass a lethal judgment on someone, or is that only God's duty? According to this priest, people should only be concerned with what God's judgment should be in the taking of a fetus' life; so why then should we not wait for God's judgment of murderers and take their lives instead?

[christiangirl]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

Pro-choice - what choice? One from column A, one from column B? Beef or chicken? Pepsi or Coke?

It might just be because I'm tired, but the first thing I thought after reading this was "She forgot 'chicken or fish'."

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

The only two choices are NOT have an legal abortion, or die in a botched illegal one.

I would like to point out to everyone that legalizing abortions (or keeping them legal) will not erase the occurence of "back alley" abortions. Furthermore, any medical procedure carries a huge amount of risk and have the potential to be "botched." The chances are not remotely equal, but they are still present in BOTH scenarios.

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

That is where the debate should center, instead of the idea that anti-abortionists are somehow crazed fundamentalists who want to punish women, or that pro-abortion supporters are murderous immoral relativists. (climbing down off soap box)

AMEN.

That being said, even if both sides respected the fact that each side sees it differently...they will continue to see it differently. This is the very reason why this debate will never die.

Originally Posted by irishpipes

Basically, (and I hate to say basically, because none of it is basic,) no Catholic can receive Communion if they are not in a state of grace.

Grace is a concept that applies to all of us (sinners) and is only given by God through Jesus Christ. Given that it is God who extends His grace to us, then who is the Church to decide who is in a state of grace and who is not? Given that sinners are EVERYBODY, not just people who have committed acts on "the special list" then are we not all living in a perpetual state of grace? This isn't directed at you, irish, I just really felt the need to say it. This priest (and others like him) needs to get off his high horse because supporting Obama does not mean I am not worthy of a connection with God. No other human's beliefs have bearing on mine and supporting a man who supports an issue does not make me support the issue by extension. Even if it did, God's presence is not a nightclub. If you are going to bring people to Him THEN DO IT. He didn't ask for you to check IDs and attire so you can pick and choose who comes to the table.

[irishpipes]

Originally Posted by christiangirl

Grace is a concept that applies to all of us (sinners) and is only given by God through Jesus Christ. Given that it is God who extends His grace to us, then who is the Church to decide who is in a state of grace and who is not? Given that sinners are EVERYBODY, not just people who have committed acts on "the special list" then are we not all living in a perpetual state of grace? This isn't directed at you, irish, I just really felt the need to say it. This priest (and others like him) needs to get off his high horse because supporting Obama does not mean I am not worthy of a connection with God.

This post is exactly why I previously posted that this is an issue for Catholics. Your definition of grace is not the issue here, and your post indicates that you do not understand Catholic teachings on grace or of ordination and priesthood. This priest was not directing his comments at you, since you aren't Catholic.

[RaggedyAnn]

Originally Posted by aephi alum

But that doesn't mean that you have to actively pursue legislation (and by extension, legislators and executives who will support such legislation) that will prevent people who don't share Catholic views from obtaining safe birth control and abortion for those who do not want children, and IVF for those who want children but can't conceive without medical intervention

Some people look to religion for moral guidance in how to vote for candidates though. The issues they support are in line with their faith.

[Scandia]

Gianna is the exception. Removal of uterus when there is uterine cancer is allowed, even if the baby is not viable and does not make it. But then, removing the baby to save the mother's life is allowed if the intent is to save both, even if the baby is not viable.

My ideas about abortion may not be as strict as those of the church, but not as lax as Obama's either.

Regarding as to when life begins... I do not think fertilization of the egg (aka conception) is a good point. If all fertilized eggs were to implant successfully, the world's population would be much higher than what it is now. Implantation would be a better point- but I have known people who had miscarriages because while zygote implanted, the cells did not differentiate and at one point they just stopped multiplying and the uterus expelled the mass of identical cells. Heartbeat definitely shows life is present, though.

[Scandia]

I've also always wondered if other Catholics (in an area that is not predominantly Hispanic) have such an "admiration" to the Virgin Mary that the Hispanic (mainly Mexican) Catholics do.

When we first moved to northern Florida, one of the first things my mother noticed about the church we joined was that "here they don't sing to the Virgin. Everything is 'Lord this' and 'Lord that'". The devotion, while present, is nowhere near as intense.

[agzg]

Nittanyalum and Irishpipes you guys are right, it is catholic with a small c. I'm just so used to writing Catholic meaning the Catholic Church that that one slipped out.

I was actually talking to my dad about this. I learned some interesting things. I thought he "left" the Roman Catholic Church, turns out, he just stopped going because he liked going to church with my mom and us kids. Apparently my mom and dad agreed that us kids would be raised Methodist for unknown reasons when my brother was born. He actually said today that he was thinking about going back. He's still super active in the Methodist Church, too. Turns out, my mom and dad were married by a priest AND a pastor, and it was actually my mom's pastor that got my mom's name wrong during the ceremony.

My mom also alluded to the fact a few years ago that my dad may have had a falling out with his home church somewhere in the late seventies, early eighties. As I understand, it was quite the turbulent time for the RC Church around then, and he just got fed up. He's never said why that was, though.

Regardless, to the topic at hand. Apparently, his understanding (and you guys have understand that his Catholic education was before Roe v. Wade) is that if you have an abortion, you're excommunicated. He said that when he does go to confession, and goes through the steps to get back in grace with the Church (can you imagine that? "My last confession was 30 years ago."), he will only mention how he voted if the priest asks him. He didn't vote for Obama because he was pro-choice, my dad voted for Obama because he just plain didn't like McCain, and fell more in line with Obama's other views.

I do think my Church would frown on abortion, but I have never heard anything about not voting for someone based on their views. My hometown is weird though - it's in the North, so it's pretty progressive (I think) on some points, but it's in a really rural area, so it's pretty status quo on other points. The sad part is all the kids keep moving out of town, my dad's one of the younger people in the church and he's 57. I think that's a problem with the Methodist Church as a whole, though, because when I went to church in Pittsburgh I was the youngest there by at least 30 years.

I've gone on another tangent. Sorry.

[SWTXBelle]

Tangents are often my favorite part of a thread.

[irishpipes]

Originally Posted by alphagamzetagam

Regardless, to the topic at hand. Apparently, his understanding (and you guys have understand that his Catholic education was before Roe v. Wade) is that if you have an abortion, you're excommunicated. He said that when he does go to confession, and goes through the steps to get back in grace with the Church (can you imagine that? "My last confession was 30 years ago."), he will only mention how he voted if the priest asks him. He didn't vote for Obama because he was pro-choice, my dad voted for Obama because he just plain didn't like McCain, and fell more in line with Obama's other views.

I do think my Church would frown on abortion, but I have never heard anything about not voting for someone based on their views. My hometown is weird though - it's in the North, so it's pretty progressive (I think) on some points, but it's in a really rural area, so it's pretty status quo on other points. The sad part is all the kids keep moving out of town, my dad's one of the younger people in the church and he's 57. I think that's a problem with the Methodist Church as a whole, though, because when I went to church in Pittsburgh I was the youngest there by at least 30 years.

I've gone on another tangent. Sorry.

The Church does not hold that abortion=excommunication. (The act of procuring an abortion does incur excommunication latae sententiae, but the catechism is clear that the scope of mercy is not restricted.) There is a lot of bad information out there, and much of it does stem from that yucky time after Vatican II when there was a lot of confusion within the Church itself. No sin is unforgiveable with true repentance. The Church even sponsors a program called Rachel's Vineyard to help those traumatized by abortion (usually women who have had them and have guilt). (As well as prison ministries for convicted murderers and other criminals, so there is a lot of evidence out there that the Church actively reaches out to every Catholic, and especially to those in most need of forgiveness.)

Your dad may be like a lot of Catholics who are having to learn a lot on their own. I went to Catholic schools for 13 years and never learned a thing about my religion that mattered. It was all social justice and Kumbayah. I was raised during that period where very liberal cafeteria Catholics were running a lot of the schools and parishes. It took my own initiative as an adult to put the pieces together. It helps that I was raised in a very Catholic home, but like your dad, there were plenty of things that I misunderstood from my youth.

[agzg]

Well now you know that Mike and Carol were married in 1978.

My mom was a little offended. Her name was Karen.

[SWTXBelle]

My youngest son's baptism was amazing - the bishop performed the super-deluxe, candle and salt included service - but forgot the critical words "I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost". Nope - just plum forgot it. I whispered in my husband's ear "I don't think Liam is really baptized!" After the service we had the conditional "If this child has not been baptized, I baptize you . . ." So hey, just be glad it worked out with Carol/Karen and your dad.