No place for average PNMs?

[Titchou]

Originally Posted by violetpretty

Every NPC has chapters at large schools up North (and elsewhere where it is uncommon for PNMs to secure their own recs) who have three options:
*go without a NM class (not a viable option)
*have advisors scramble for recs for 500 girls
*ignore National policy

Unless you are simply writing on a sheet of paper, "Dear Sisters, I recommend Polly PNM for membership in XYZ. Sincerely, Alumna" and counting that as a rec.

I'm curious as to how some chapters get around such a policy.

Well, that's private membership selection information but there are ways.

[oncegreek]

Waaay back in the day, at my west coast school which was purported to have a "laid-back" recruitment (it was anything but that!) many girls dropped out because they were not invited back to their first choices. The well-intentioned response of my alma mater was to add more chapters, one after another. As in, one in 1981, another in 1982, one more in 1983.....Two of those three chapters are gone, and two more closed as well. The Panhellenic website still says, in capital letters, that recs are not needed. I think that at many schools, girls want to join those chapters perceived as "top," or nor join at all. Unfortunately, at too many schools, as another poster stated, it is the "look" that determines who is invited back.

[AXOrushadvisor]

Originally Posted by jamalter

This is an interesting thread for a mom of a PNM at Alabama, who is trying very hard to understand the whole process. I've never been involved with greek life, and my daughter certainly was not "prepared" like I'm reading so many were. This leads me to my thoughts on why my daughter had such an easy time with the process as opposed to some very sad stories that I've read in GC, and may serve as advice to other PNMs trying to understand how to be successful.

My daughter really is "average" at least compared to some I've read about on here. She had a 3.3 GPA, was captain of her volleyball team, had a few minor clubs/organizations that she was involved in (no leadership roles however), and went to a small private school where her rank was right in the middle. She is cute, but not drop dead gorgeous. She didn't take recs seriously, and had recs for less than half the houses. In fact, up until about a week before rush, she was undecided if she was going to go through with it. But at Bama, if you rush, you move in a week early, and this sounded good to her, so she started the process. She had no idea about the different houses and therefore, had a completely open mind going in. I think this is what differentiated her. She pretty much enjoyed every house she visited, maximized all her options every step of the way, and in the end went to the max of 3 pref parties and loved them all.

Had I read GC prior to this process, I would have told her not to bother - she would never make the cut. Bama is too competitive and she wouldn't stand a chance. So why do I think she was sucessful? Because she was relaxed, open minded and never stressed about not making the cut at this house or the other. And that's what I would stress to all new PNMs.

Having said this, no offense, but I still think the process is bizarre.

Originally Posted by oncegreek

Waaay back in the day, at my west coast school which was purported to have a "laid-back" recruitment (it was anything but that!) many girls dropped out because they were not invited back to their first choices. The well-intentioned response of my alma mater was to add more chapters, one after another. As in, one in 1981, another in 1982, one more in 1983.....Two of those three chapters are gone, and two more closed as well. The Panhellenic website still says, in capital letters, that recs are not needed. I think that at many schools, girls want to join those chapters perceived as "top," or nor join at all. Unfortunately, at too many schools, as another poster stated, it is the "look" that determines who is invited back.

With 15 minute first rounds, I have to agree that looks do play a role on who the women want to invite back. It is first impressions and how well can you get to know someone in less then 15 minutes? I personally think our first round needs to get a little longer so that we can get to know our PNM's a little better and they can get to know us a little better.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by violetpretty

Every NPC has chapters at large schools up North (and elsewhere where it is uncommon for PNMs to secure their own recs) who have three options:
*go without a NM class (not a viable option)
*have advisors scramble for recs for 500 girls
*ignore National policy

Unless you are simply writing on a sheet of paper, "Dear Sisters, I recommend Polly PNM for membership in XYZ. Sincerely, Alumna" and counting that as a rec.

I'm curious as to how some chapters get around such a policy.

I think many NPCs have no such policy. AOII doesn't. Recs are nice and may be necessary at some chapters but are not required Internationally to be accepted into AOII.

[Jen]

I think a lot of the releases could also be explained by the needs of the sorority in that particular year.

A smaller group who is trying to rebuild may want to focus on quality rather than quantity, and may be fine with not reaching quota if it means they get the type of woman they want. That type may be women with strong leadership qualities who are willing to step into those roles right away and are self-confident enough to want to be a part of rebuilding a group.

So a group interested in a woman wanting to take a leadership role may pass over a woman who says she's really interested in the social part of a sorority, or one who is quiet or shy, because they don't think she wants to lead (even if she does!).

Years later that same group could be doing exceedingly well, and may want a very broad range of girls - or maybe they want to avoid recruiting a lot of strong leadership types because they already have so many and they need other types of women to balance the group out. Maybe they want to expand their social activities on campus and are looking for really outgoing and social women? Or maybe they need some women with really strong academics that year because they lost some of their more academically inclined sisters to graduation.

So I think a lot of the average girls who get cut just might not fit that needs of a particular group in that recruitment - and each group is going to have different needs, and she may not be strong enough in the areas they are seeking to stand out. It's no fault of the PNM, because they don't know what to emphasize about themselves if they do have the qualities that group is seeking.

They may be really social and outgoing - once you get to know them. But if this isn't evident in the first or second round, a sorority looking for those types of girls might pass her over in favour of a girl who is more obviously social. This woman may have ended up being a stellar member, but with such a short amount of time, the sorority has to go with what they see and know from those short meetings (especially when a larger group has to cut a LOT of PNMs after the first round, because they are required to due to release figures).

[RhoGamma09]

Originally Posted by violetpretty

Every NPC has chapters at large schools up North (and elsewhere where it is uncommon for PNMs to secure their own recs) who have three options:
*go without a NM class (not a viable option)
*have advisors scramble for recs for 500 girls
*ignore National policy

Unless you are simply writing on a sheet of paper, "Dear Sisters, I recommend Polly PNM for membership in XYZ. Sincerely, Alumna" and counting that as a rec.

I'm curious as to how some chapters get around such a policy.

See, this confuses me. At my school, we dont do recs at all (actually, if you talked to most people here, and you explained recs, they would think you were crazy, they have never heard of them). We have registration, so panhel finds out all the necessary information such as GPA, activities, legacy, etc etc etc...there is a GPA minimum to go through recruitment, etc....but I thought this happened at all schools?

I think our Panhel feels that having the basics like that on file satisfies the need for recs, and the rest is up to a girl to make a good impression and find her sorority. I've never seen recs mentioned in our national policy either.

I dont know, maybe I am missing something...(like I said, I only know about it because of GC!) but we do great without recs, and we're doing better every year.

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by RhoGamma09

See, this confuses me. At my school, we dont do recs at all (actually, if you talked to most people here, and you explained recs, they would think you were crazy, they have never heard of them). We have registration, so panhel finds out all the necessary information such as GPA, activities, legacy, etc etc etc...there is a GPA minimum to go through recruitment, etc....but I thought this happened at all schools?

I think our Panhel feels that having the basics like that on file satisfies the need for recs, and the rest is up to a girl to make a good impression and find her sorority. I've never seen recs mentioned in our national policy either.

I dont know, maybe I am missing something...(like I said, I only know about it because of GC!) but we do great without recs, and we're doing better every year.

Having a rec is something that's just standard at some schools. It's nothing that guarantees you a bid or anything. It's similar to having a certain GPA. Girls know that in order to do well, you need it. It's just standard procedure (along with registration, grades, and everything else).

Also, at many schools where recs are needed, there are close to 1,000 PNMs going through, and having recs helps to provide extra info about girls.

Something you will figure out if you stick around here long enough is that every school is different. The way another school functions does not make it better or worse.

[RhoGamma09]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

Having a rec is something that's just standard at some schools. It's nothing that guarantees you a bid or anything. It's similar to having a certain GPA. Girls know that in order to do well, you need it. It's just standard procedure (along with registration, grades, and everything else).

Also, at many schools where recs are needed, there are close to 1,000 PNMs going through, and having recs helps to provide extra info about girls.

Something you will figure out if you stick around here long enough is that every school is different. The way another school functions does not make it better or worse.

Okay, yeah, I understood most of that already, but you did clear it up for me so thank you! I was just most confused about the comment about "ignoring national policy", I wasnt sure if the poster was saying that she thinks it is and that we ignore it...or...I dunno, I didnt understand what she meant by the post.

We definitely dont have even 500+ girls going through, so we dont need them, but who knows, if we ever grew enough, we might move into needing recs!

[ISUKappa]

Originally Posted by violetpretty

Every NPC has chapters at large schools up North (and elsewhere where it is uncommon for PNMs to secure their own recs) who have three options:
*go without a NM class (not a viable option)
*have advisors scramble for recs for 500 girls
*ignore National policy

Unless you are simply writing on a sheet of paper, "Dear Sisters, I recommend Polly PNM for membership in XYZ. Sincerely, Alumna" and counting that as a rec.

I'm curious as to how some chapters get around such a policy.

Originally Posted by Titchou

Well, that's private membership selection information but there are ways.

Precisely.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I think many NPCs have no such policy. AOII doesn't. Recs are nice and may be necessary at some chapters but are not required Internationally to be accepted into AOII.

While its possible not all NPCs have that policy, but I would hope the Membership/Recruitment advisor for the ones that do are aware and make the chapter aware of that requirement. They should also be aware what they need to do to ensure that requirement is fulfilled.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by ISUKappa

While its possible not all NPCs have that policy, but I would hope the Membership/Recruitment advisor for the ones that do are aware and make the chapter aware of that requirement. They should also be aware what they need to do to ensure that requirement is fulfilled.

I wonder what kind of monitoring the (inter)national organizations do if they require recs since many schools just don't do them (unless of course, chapters are doing like violetpretty says and writing a quick sentence to satisfy the requirement.)

[33girl]

Originally Posted by AXOrushadvisor

What I don't understand is "bottom" chapters releasing for grades. I think if I was trying to get numbers up I would take grade exceptions. I have seen Chapters pick up some good women this way.

If you have less members than everyone else to begin with, the last thing you need is Zelda 0.0 dragging you down even further. This is when you call up HQ and say "which do you want - numbers or grades?"

Coming from a "not top tier" chapter, you'd be amazed at how awful some rushees can be. I won't get into voting detail but there were some women that I just wanted to be able to vote infinity lower than I did because they were so rude. Then of course, if there are girls who didn't get bids and the lower-down chapters didn't take them, all of a sudden the sorority is full of total bitches. (It was OK for the top sorority to reject them, however.) May I also add, for every sorority (tiers notwithstanding) there are things that can make you a favorite at one chapter, and detested at another. And it's usually nothing you can even spell out.

Originally Posted by APhiAnna

To be fair too, what you are hearing from nervous freshmen PNMs is never going to be true. Girls in our own chapters have a hard enough time keeping it straight. If you ask any PNM at any school that suffered even minor cuts, I guarantee you they will tell you that they just went through the most competitive rush that XYZ University has EVER had. EVER. Obviously top tier ABC may have had a very good idea of who they want to pledge, but I guarantee you that, no matter what campus, there are many chapters who are much more open-minded. And really, do you honestly believe that "XYZ who hasn't made quota in 3 years" started the rush process saying "these 100 girls are the only ones we are interested in bidding and if you aren't already in-state and BFF with at least 3 girls then we will cut you?" No. They are going to be open-minded about EVERY PNM, but they are still going to want women that promote their chapter in a positive way so they can grow. So it's probably not that every single recruitment chair at every single chapter had it out for your since Day #1.

Just go give an example, these are reasons why I, my sisters or my friends at other schools/chapters released women that would fall into "good on paper, good picture, etc" categories. If you saw their resume and their Facebook profile you may have been excited about pledging them until they did one of the following:
* Were you a complainer? "OMG, it's soooo hot...", "Haha sorry I'm sooo tired", "Yeah my roommate is kind of weird and lame", "The dorm food is sooo gross"...
* Did you rest on being shy and think that the burden was on the chapters to realize you'd be more outgoing starting three weeks in?
* Did you only bother getting recs for what your friend's sister's boyfriend told you were the three best sororities?
* Were you rude or disinterested to some chapters during the first round because you "so knew" you were going top tier? Top tier may not have wanted you, but would anybody else want a sister who acted bored either?
* Did you wear clothing in a color that made your normally beautiful skin look pasty? Was your dress silhouette more appropriate to 2003 than 2009?
* Did you talk about how much money you have? Nothing can make somebody look poorer than that...
* Did you only ask questions about the chapters GPA and philanthropy and housing points? We wanted a sister to have fun with too.
* Did you mention you are going to get your sororities letters tattooed on your ass? (This REALLY was brought up to somebody I know during recruitment in EVERY chapter the PNM visited).
* Did you bring up God every sentence to an atheist? Did you roll your eyes when a sister mentioned that XYZ also has a Bible study?
* Did some of your more questionable high school nights end up becoming known to sisters or alumni? Or did you even go so far as to leave the topless kegstand photo on Facebook?
* Were you an "eager beaver" who was trying too hard to be bubbly and "hug attacked" every other member you met?

There are SO many reasons why you may have had a bad rush even if you were average looking with a great GPA.

At the end of it though, blaming the sororities for your mistake will hinder you in life. Rush is a great way of seeing how you do in first impressions. These first impressions will affect your first dates, your job interviews, your impression on coworkers/in laws/professors, meeting with your prospective country club/arts guild/book club/PTA/intramural team/church/synagogue/children's friends parents...and maybe even the second/third/fourth time you rush. It would behoove you to not place the blame on others and sit down and analyze why you may have made some mistakes and how you can correct them for the next time first impressions matter.

I beg to defer - my daughter was just cut from all houses while rushing at a Big Ten University, she is an out of state student. She was a legacy at KKG, DG, Theta, and AXO...talk about devasting, her sister is currently a "sitting "sister at KKG" and she assumed that she was a shoo-in - she is a pretty (an Elite model), smart (at the University on a full scholarship for being a National Merit Scholar) and has a many hours logged in community service. She was also very familiar with playing the game of looking put together and telling the girls that she was very interested in their house. She did not mention many of her accomplishments, hoping the girls would like her for her personality. With a full slate of legacy recommendations, she was interviewed by all of the executive committee members - who told her that they couldn't wait to see her back the next day, only to cut her. Although she does not drink, she is not "preachy" about what others choose to do. She was looking for an opportunity for community service, leadership, and a place to belong...only to be shut out, I understand that most colleges conduct rush at the start of the school year in the hopes that girls will have a place to belong, but having been through the middle of the school year rush - I think it is a better option - if a girls does not make it in it does not lead the depression and disappointment. She is looking forward to finding a place to make her mark at her school, but it will not be in the greek community...she did not understand how all of the legacies on her dorm floor were asked to pledge and she was not. AphiAnna you obviously do not have any daughters.

Originally Posted by OTW

I sympathized with you until your last sentence.

Just because one does not have daughters does not mean they aren't qualified to give advice, even if it's advice you don't want to hear.

You are entitled to your opinion. I have noticed in my many years of having children through college that similiar thoughts are expressed by those made by thouse who have children that have not yet started school or have children that have not experienced multiple disappointments in life.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by tld221

oh come ON - what could a 17-18 year old freshman really say to a (possibly older) active that would make them cry? its a serious question-i really dont see a PNM being so crude and crass that it could bring a member to tears.

whatever it is, those girls need not be rushing PNMs. put them on the refreshment or door chant committee. i would hope that an active could handle the worst of anything a PNM could say, from "this house sucks" to "yo mama."

I initially agreed with you. Then I realized that I can't fathom it because I'm not completely in the NPC recruitment frame of reference.

I keep skipping back to how something like that is rare in the NPHC process and how it would be dealt with.

[ComradesTrue]

Originally Posted by kkgdgmom

You are entitled to your opinion. I have noticed in my many years of having children through college that similiar thoughts are expressed by those made by thouse who have children that have not yet started school or have children that have not experienced multiple disappointments in life.

First, my disclaimer. My daughter is not yet in college. Actually, she is only 10 months old. But, despite that, I do have hopes and dreams for her, so I can relate to a mom wanting her "baby girl" to be happy.

That being said, I do think you may be reading a bit much into Anna's post. I found her post to be well written, helpful, and even had a bit of sensitivity. Yes, after being cut by all houses there it can really hurt to read something like that, but I do feel that she presented it in a very considerate manner. She provided a very enlightened (perhaps a tad too enlightened for membership selection info) glimpse into what 18-22 year olds are noticing as they meet prospective members. I did not find anything tacky or mean-spirited about her post. Trust me, it could have been much, much worse. I also know many women in my organization with college-aged daughters who would have had the same thought as she did.

Again, I am very sorry for your daughters experience. Really, I am. However, I think that some of your pain may have been misplaced on Anna.