Toast Song

[emb021]

There is more to changing the Toast Song then money or appeasing potential members or outside orgs.

Traditions are great. I am very much for traditions and love it when chapters take a look at other chapters' traditions for ideas for new traditions. But there comes a time when traditions need to change. Sometimes its due to outside pressure (legal, membership numbers[both bringing in new members and keeping current members], finances, etc.). Sometimes its due to inside pressure (members seeing the negative impact of such traditions, members themselves not liking certain traditions, etc.).

APO as an organization has changed several times. (and we still have people fighting over them!) It will continue to change. We all have to make sure that the changes are for the right reasons at the right time. Are you preventing or resisting change for the right reasons? At what point will you allow for change?

For those who don't want the Toast Song to change, what would need to happen to make you change your mind? (no, you don't need to answer that here, just think about this)

[33girl]

Originally posted by emb021
For those who don't want the Toast Song to change, what would need to happen to make you change your mind? (no, you don't need to answer that here, just think about this)

I know you said I don't need to answer here but I will anyway:

A clear majority of the active membership (including alums who are active volunteers) wants the change and approves of the change. And proof that this is the case. In other words, knowing a change will strengthen the fraternity, not divide it further.

[emb021]

Originally posted by 33girl
I know you said I don't need to answer here but I will anyway:

A clear majority of the active membership (including alums who are active volunteers) wants the change and approves of the change. And proof that this is the case.

I got into a large discussion about the Greek situation on my campus with a dude who thought a Greek Row would solve all the problems. I asked several pertinent questions and he accused me of being "discouraging." I said if he could show me that the students wanted it and would support it - I would be fine with it - but I wasn't getting any of that from him, just a bunch of statistics and figures and fraternity corporatespeak that had nothing to do with our school situation.

Point being - show me that this change will actually unite the fraternity, rather than further divide it, and I'll be the first to get on board.

Actually you gave two answers. Your second one is what I was looking for.

As to your first answer, realize that even if this occurs you're going to have people who won't like/accept it, as has happened with other changes in our organization. (and I've seen this in other groups).

[sweete81]

Originally posted by 33girl
I know you said I don't need to answer here but I will anyway:

A clear majority of the active membership (including alums who are active volunteers) wants the change and approves of the change. And proof that this is the case. In other words, knowing a change will strengthen the fraternity, not divide it further.

To quote the wise Whitney Houston: "Show me some receipts!" I would like to see some tangible stats on this fact, because I do not see where the majority of actives or alums are in support of this change. Could someone pm me with this information. Also, people going to nationals would not even constitute a majority of the fraternity, so once again I ask, where are the stats!

[GoldnBlue2004]

Yes, APO IS A BUSINESS, BUT GUESS WHO FINANCES IT, Fraternity MEMBERS not POTENTIAL Members! The frat needs to be more concerned about membership retention and pleasing the members instead of accomodating to some aspirants.


I agree with this statement totally.

[CasanovaAPQ]

this is just like trying to tell the all male chapters to go co-ed its not going to happen anytime soon, may happen one day but not in the next 2 years so lets please talk about something else. i mean there are alot of other issues in apo than the toast song. why not talk about how we can diversify the frat more. seems like we have a problem in the minority community with male interest also male interest in the frat in general. also have a problem with chapters not being diverse. there suppose to represent the campus as far as gender but not diversity? to me those are more of an issue than a toast song which isnt even a copy written tune by us.

[Senusret I]

Originally posted by sweete81
To quote the wise Whitney Houston: "Show me some receipts!" I would like to see some tangible stats on this fact, because I do not see where the majority of actives or alums are in support of this change. Could someone pm me with this information. Also, people going to nationals would not even constitute a majority of the fraternity, so once again I ask, where are the stats!

That's not what she meant. The question posed to her was "what would need to happen to make you change your mind?"

Her answer was what you quoted, underscored by the "and proof that this is the case."

[sweete81]

i get it now, 33girl i apologize. POBODY's NERFECT!

[SagnastyChic]

Originally posted by lurker
OK, obviously I'm in the minority here. But I do have a few things to point out.

1. Saying that I should resign from APO because I feel the toast song is outdated (not that I'm saying its bad, but had the toast song been written AFTER the fraternity turned coed, the words would surely be different) is flat out rude. Anyone who would do that is obviously not in APO for the right reasons.

2. I find that adding unofficial verses (especially lewd ones) is a lot more disrespectful than simply changing a couple words.

3. I'm obviously from a more liberal region than most. I'm not disrespecting the organization. Every single person in my chapter agrees that it should change.

4. Just because things change or should change does not mean they were bad in the first place. Simply outdated.

5. If the words were already "true to alpha phi omega" you would have nothing to complain about. Why specify "men" if not necessary (and yes I understand the whole men meaning people standpoint, but why even raise the question?)


The quasi-rude posts really aren't necessary. Just because i have a different viewpoint doesn't mean you need to jump on my back.

Actually, i was giving my viewpoint also...

[33girl]

Originally posted by sweete81
i get it now, 33girl i apologize. POBODY's NERFECT!

no problem darlin

[PrettyKittieJ]

OKay Im sorry guys but since I havent been on the board I have missed a few things and I am honestly not going to read through all 4 pages right now.

To the original question: I do not feel like the song needs to changed - it is fine the way that it is.

Im not sure if anyone else brought this up - but as I read the Bible and was intructed by my pastor/minister that anytime you see the word "man" it means and pertains to "man and woMAN" - Im not sure if anyone else sees it this way....but I do!

[emb021]

Originally posted by PrettyKittieJ
OKay Im sorry guys but since I havent been on the board I have missed a few things and I am honestly not going to read through all 4 pages right now.

To the original question: I do not feel like the song needs to changed - it is fine the way that it is.

Im not sure if anyone else brought this up - but as I read the Bible and was intructed by my pastor/minister that anytime you see the word "man" it means and pertains to "man and woMAN" - Im not sure if anyone else sees it this way....but I do!

Yes, the term Man/Men can refer to all humans or just males. Sadly, in this day of PCism, too many people want to look for offenses where they do not exist.

[DeltaPyrite]

Just found this forum and I guess I'm going to stir up this pot that's been dead for two years. Just because there are some issues in this thread that I can't leave untouched.

Originally Posted by lurker

2. I find that adding unofficial verses (especially lewd ones) is a lot more disrespectful than simply changing a couple words.

Big fat word. I can't believe people in this thread are getting riled up about altering two or three words in the toast song to reflect the fact that we include women (and have for thirty years!), but no one aside from lurker was offended by those two crass verses naraht posted that demean our fraternity, our women, and our men. Disgusting.

Alsom going back to the words that you all sing in your chapter (since you all are female) is disrespectful to my beloved organization.

I don't see how an all-inclusive version of the song that reflects the growth of the fraternity is disrespectful to it. To the women and men who sing the gender-inclusive version of the song APO is their beloved organization. It is not just yours, it is all of ours.

I felt sick when I traveled to another section and heard them sing, "Friends of Alpha Phi Omega... " I kindly stepped back and asked what new fraternity did I enter, but I forgot some things are done quite DIFFERENTLY in other places.

I guess it's all perspective, because I felt sick when I went to Co-Sectionals and saw a group of mostly women singing the words "Men of Alpha Phi Omega." I guess I forgot some things are done quite differently in other places...

Yes change is good and is needed in any org to survive and grow but to lose history or to totally forget our proud history is bad which has happened to APO in the last 30 years.

I find it totally disgusting that you attribute the loss of our history only back to the moment women were admitted to the fraternity. Furnish some proof that there were no members who didn't know our founding date, didn't know how the shield was made, etc. until 30 years ago and then I'll start to take you seriously... until then, you seem to be just a guy who's really bitter that there are women in his fraternity, and you need to Deal. With. It.

In some ways its humorous in that people like Jesse Bridges feel that the requirement that all chapters (especially to him, the HBCUs) activate/reactivate co-ed in his mind has already pushed us to being a Frarority.

This brought up a totally logistical question that maybe someone can answer for me, just because I'm really curious.
If an initiated female member of APO transfers to a school that has a male-only chapter, would she be allowed to affiliate into that chapter? Obviously nationals allows chapters who have been male-only to remain that way for new members, but can they, under the national bylaws, deny membership to an initiated brother who has transferred to their school?

[33girl]

Originally Posted by DeltaPyrite

Big fat word. I can't believe people in this thread are getting riled up about altering two or three words in the toast song to reflect the fact that we include women (and have for thirty years!), but no one aside from lurker was offended by those two crass verses naraht posted that demean our fraternity, our women, and our men. Disgusting.

The difference is those "two or three words" are two or three VERY IMPORTANT words.

Every fraternity and sorority I've ever come in contact with has "unofficial" songs - the one naraht quoted is one I've heard numerous groups use, so it certainly isn't an "APO song." It's nothing to get offended over, unless of course you're PC to the gazillionth power.

Originally Posted by DeltaPyrite

To the women and men who sing the gender-inclusive version of the song APO is their beloved organization. It is not just yours, it is all of ours.

So if we DON'T sing or approve of the altered version, it's NOT our beloved organization?

What the??

I'm linking this thread, because it sums up what I want to say when people get hung up about all this "gender" business.

http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...ad.php?t=48391

[DeltaPyrite]

So if we DON'T sing or approve of the altered version, it's NOT our beloved organization?

What the??

No no no!! That is exactly the sentiment I am trying to refute!
I am trying to say that is it not just GoldnBlue2004's beloved organization, it is all of ours, 33girl's, DeltaPyrite's, GoldnBlue's, and every other member's in response to his preposterous statement that "the words that you all sing in your chapter is disrespectful to my beloved organization." He is trying to appropriate APO for himself... in your own words: "What the???"

Originally Posted by 33girl

The difference is those "two or three words" are two or three VERY IMPORTANT words.

I agree that they are VERY IMPORTANT. That's why I think they should change to reflect the important and significant growth of the fraternity rather than stagnating with a policy that is 95.29% dead and has been out of commission for 30 years.

I am not PC to the gazillionth power, but I do find the crude, sexual lyrics put to the tune of our Toast Song far more offensive than alterations which are made respectfully and in the spirit of the current policies and aims of the fraternity. Is that off base?