Toast Song

[DeltaPyrite]

Just found this forum and I guess I'm going to stir up this pot that's been dead for two years. Just because there are some issues in this thread that I can't leave untouched.

Originally Posted by lurker

2. I find that adding unofficial verses (especially lewd ones) is a lot more disrespectful than simply changing a couple words.

Big fat word. I can't believe people in this thread are getting riled up about altering two or three words in the toast song to reflect the fact that we include women (and have for thirty years!), but no one aside from lurker was offended by those two crass verses naraht posted that demean our fraternity, our women, and our men. Disgusting.

Alsom going back to the words that you all sing in your chapter (since you all are female) is disrespectful to my beloved organization.

I don't see how an all-inclusive version of the song that reflects the growth of the fraternity is disrespectful to it. To the women and men who sing the gender-inclusive version of the song APO is their beloved organization. It is not just yours, it is all of ours.

I felt sick when I traveled to another section and heard them sing, "Friends of Alpha Phi Omega... " I kindly stepped back and asked what new fraternity did I enter, but I forgot some things are done quite DIFFERENTLY in other places.

I guess it's all perspective, because I felt sick when I went to Co-Sectionals and saw a group of mostly women singing the words "Men of Alpha Phi Omega." I guess I forgot some things are done quite differently in other places...

Yes change is good and is needed in any org to survive and grow but to lose history or to totally forget our proud history is bad which has happened to APO in the last 30 years.

I find it totally disgusting that you attribute the loss of our history only back to the moment women were admitted to the fraternity. Furnish some proof that there were no members who didn't know our founding date, didn't know how the shield was made, etc. until 30 years ago and then I'll start to take you seriously... until then, you seem to be just a guy who's really bitter that there are women in his fraternity, and you need to Deal. With. It.

In some ways its humorous in that people like Jesse Bridges feel that the requirement that all chapters (especially to him, the HBCUs) activate/reactivate co-ed in his mind has already pushed us to being a Frarority.

This brought up a totally logistical question that maybe someone can answer for me, just because I'm really curious.
If an initiated female member of APO transfers to a school that has a male-only chapter, would she be allowed to affiliate into that chapter? Obviously nationals allows chapters who have been male-only to remain that way for new members, but can they, under the national bylaws, deny membership to an initiated brother who has transferred to their school?

[33girl]

Originally Posted by DeltaPyrite

Big fat word. I can't believe people in this thread are getting riled up about altering two or three words in the toast song to reflect the fact that we include women (and have for thirty years!), but no one aside from lurker was offended by those two crass verses naraht posted that demean our fraternity, our women, and our men. Disgusting.

The difference is those "two or three words" are two or three VERY IMPORTANT words.

Every fraternity and sorority I've ever come in contact with has "unofficial" songs - the one naraht quoted is one I've heard numerous groups use, so it certainly isn't an "APO song." It's nothing to get offended over, unless of course you're PC to the gazillionth power.

Originally Posted by DeltaPyrite

To the women and men who sing the gender-inclusive version of the song APO is their beloved organization. It is not just yours, it is all of ours.

So if we DON'T sing or approve of the altered version, it's NOT our beloved organization?

What the??

I'm linking this thread, because it sums up what I want to say when people get hung up about all this "gender" business.

http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...ad.php?t=48391

[DeltaPyrite]

So if we DON'T sing or approve of the altered version, it's NOT our beloved organization?

What the??

No no no!! That is exactly the sentiment I am trying to refute!
I am trying to say that is it not just GoldnBlue2004's beloved organization, it is all of ours, 33girl's, DeltaPyrite's, GoldnBlue's, and every other member's in response to his preposterous statement that "the words that you all sing in your chapter is disrespectful to my beloved organization." He is trying to appropriate APO for himself... in your own words: "What the???"

Originally Posted by 33girl

The difference is those "two or three words" are two or three VERY IMPORTANT words.

I agree that they are VERY IMPORTANT. That's why I think they should change to reflect the important and significant growth of the fraternity rather than stagnating with a policy that is 95.29% dead and has been out of commission for 30 years.

I am not PC to the gazillionth power, but I do find the crude, sexual lyrics put to the tune of our Toast Song far more offensive than alterations which are made respectfully and in the spirit of the current policies and aims of the fraternity. Is that off base?

[33girl]

Like I said, I've heard that song before, and it isn't to the tune of our Toast Song. The Kellerman's song from Dirty Dancing is, though.

I just think when you change the word "brother" to "friend" or "member" or "true to" you're making a very important statement, and IMO it's not that "we are gender inclusive" - it's "this is a club, not a fraternity." I feel the same way about some of the things in my sorority, FWIW - there are times when we say "member" when I really think we should say (and mean) "sister."

[emb021]

Some comments.

Most of the proposals out there are to change "Men of" to "True to". NONE propose change/removing "Brothers".

As I've said before, the problem is that too many forget that the terms "Man/Men" ALSO refer to 'mankind'. Watch the LOTR movies, and you'll see that they use the term "Men/Men" to refer to humans (as opposed to dwards, elves, etc).

If you can't believe that people get riled up about 'changing a couple of words' in the Toast Song, I recommend you come to Nationals and find out when several hundred of your Brothers deal with the issue.


One thing I do get annoyed of in this discussion is those that try to use history/tradition to prevent change. What is annoying is that many of those people don't seem to really be aware of the many changes that HAVE occured in APO. Our Coat of Arms is NOT what the Founders had. We've made radical changes in our national structure. The Service Pin came out a decade or so after our founding, etc. But I feel that our fundamentals have not changed.

[DeltaPyrite]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Like I said, I've heard that song before, and it isn't to the tune of our Toast Song.

Ah, that's good to know. When I was reading those lyrics they fit in with the Toast Song tune, so I just assumed...

I just think when you change the word "brother" to "friend" or "member" or "true to" you're making a very important statement, and IMO it's not that "we are gender inclusive" - it's "this is a club, not a fraternity." I feel the same way about some of the things in my sorority, FWIW - there are times when we say "member" when I really think we should say (and mean) "sister."

I guess that's where we disagree. I don't think calling each other "Brother" and referring to ourselves as "men of Alpha Phi Omega" and "brothers" are what make us a fraternity rather than a club. I don't think it's a semantic distinction. It's the fellowship and brotherhood between members. That relationship itself, along with our ideals, our letters, and our ritual are what, in my mind, set us apart from clubs. That's actually how we pitch the fraternity to prospective members. There is another service organization on campus, but we distinguish ourselves from them by explaining the fellowship/fraternity aspect, which TUVAC can't offer.

NONE propose change/removing "Brothers".

Actually, for the record, my chapter does sing "Brothers clasp the hands of sisters." I know a lot of people here loathe that particular change, and I understand why. But it's the lyric I've sung every week since joining, so I am rather attached to it.

[emb021]

Originally Posted by DeltaPyrite

Actually, for the record, my chapter does sing "Brothers clasp the hands of sisters." I know a lot of people here loathe that particular change, and I understand why. But it's the lyric I've sung every week since joining, so I am rather attached to it.

Many of us 'loathe' it because there are no Sisters in APO. We are all, male and female, Brothers. While I don't have a problem with True to, I DO have a problem with that.

Your Chapter had done you and all its members a great disservice by teaching them the Toast Song incorrectly. While I don't have a problem with some chapters' little traditions in regards to the TS (stomping and the like), changing lyrics is going too far.

[emb021]

Originally Posted by DeltaPyrite

I guess that's where we disagree. I don't think calling each other "Brother" and referring to ourselves as "men of Alpha Phi Omega" and "brothers" are what make us a fraternity rather than a club. I don't think it's a semantic distinction. It's the fellowship and brotherhood between members. That relationship itself, along with our ideals, our letters, and our ritual are what, in my mind, set us apart from clubs.

Well, I think there are many who would disagree with you.

Using terms like "Brother" is an outward sign of the brotherhood that exists between members, and is part of what makes us a fraternity and not a club. Too many in our fraternity forget this (or never learned it), and thus they think we are nothing more then a 'service club', and don't understand the important of our relationship between members (signified in part by calling everyone "Brother), our ideals, letters, rituals, etc.

There are some who think that there is a 'battle' growing between two sides within the fraternity. Between those who think us only a service club and would be quite happy to toss aside thinks such as our Toast Song, calling members Brothers, rituals, and who knows what else; and those who want us to continue being a service Fraternity, and all that entails (tho don't make the mistake of assuming they feel we should be male-only).

I'm not sure if I fully buy into that idea. But I do have to admit that I put myself on the side of those who want us to remain a service Fraternity. I do not feel that changing our Toast song from 'Men of' to 'True to' is a betrayal of this. But I am resistant to those who want to change "brothers clasp the hands of brothers" to something else, weaking the use of the term "brother", and all the rest.

(btw, in case its not clear, I find no problem with being a co-ed organization, being a service Fraternity, and calling all our members Brothers).

[33girl]

Originally Posted by emb021

Some comments.

Most of the proposals out there are to change "Men of" to "True to". NONE propose change/removing "Brothers".

Sorry to bump (you know I am) but I thought there were instances of chapters singing "members clasp the hands of members."

[naraht]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Sorry to bump (you know I am) but I thought there were instances of chapters singing "members clasp the hands of members."

Not that I can find on the web.

OTOH, if someone proposed that, I think the first amendment would be to
"members clasp the members of members"

[Attractive#7]

Originally Posted by 33girl

The Kellerman's song from Dirty Dancing is, though.

I watched a scene from the movie, The Ringer today. The scene showed the characters watching a scene from the movie Dirty Dancing. They played a song and I was like HEY IT'S THE TOAST SONG!!! It wasn't the words to the Toast Song, but it was the tune. I've been trying to figure out all night, which is why I posted the topic on the Toast Song...you are a lifesaver!