Romney Bows Out

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I hate missionaries. With their humanitarian aid and stuff, disgusting.

Mormon missionaries proselytize and that's all -- no humanitarian aid or stuff. Humanitarian aid and stuff, except for aiding their own, is not an LDS strong-suit.

'Course, I wouldn't exlude all missionaries from political service either. I couldn't, however, vote for anyone for president who believes that you need a secret password and grip to get into heaven. Chapter meetings -- yes, heaven -- no. If that makes me a bigot, so be it.

Glad to see you back, shinerbock.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Mormon missionaries proselytize and that's all -- no humanitarian aid or stuff. Humanitarian aid and stuff, except for aiding their own, is not an LDS strong-suit.

'Course, I wouldn't exlude all missionaries from political service either. I couldn't, however, vote for anyone for president who believes that you need a secret password and grip to get into heaven. Chapter meetings -- yes, heaven -- no. If that makes me a bigot, so be it.

I don't know, being willing to sacrifice two years of your life to try to bring more people to God and your idea of heaven isn't really a bad thing in my book. (I've also found Mormon missionaries pretty easy to brush off if you weren't interested.) And while Mormon missions may not typically involve humanitarian aid, the Mormons that I have known are frequently involved in secular organizations that provide assistance.

And to some degree, aren't every religions practices or beliefs a little strange to outsiders? No doubt most of what I know about Mormonism seems unusually odd but the individual Mormons I have know have demonstrated excellent character and I'd feel as/more comfortable voting for them as any evangelical Protestants. Outside of Utah, I don't think they'd except to bring about any kind of Mormon theocracy and might even be especially sensitive about religious tolerance.

I'm not trying to get into how you ought to vote, MysticCat. What people believe is ultimately real spiritually is probably pretty important and seems as valid a consideration as any.

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

I don't know, being willing to sacrifice two years of your life to try to bring more people to God and your idea of heaven isn't really a bad thing in my book. (I've also found Mormon missionaries pretty easy to brush off if you weren't interested.) And while Mormon missions may not typically involve humanitarian aid, the Mormons that I have known are frequently involved in secular organizations that provide assistance.

And to some degree, aren't every religions practices or beliefs a little strange to outsiders? No doubt most of what I know about Mormonism seems unusually odd but the individual Mormons I have know have demonstrated excellent character and I'd feel as/more comfortable voting for them as any evangelical Protestants. Outside of Utah, I don't think they'd except to bring about any kind of Mormon theocracy and might even be especially sensitive about religious tolerance.

I'm not trying to get into how you ought to vote, MysticCat. What people believe is ultimately real spiritually is probably pretty important and seems as valid a consideration as any.

But I think the difference between a Mormon missionary and your other missions is that ALL the Mormon ones seem to care about is that you come around to their way of thinking. I have friends in what would be considered fundamentalist churches who do a lot of mission work in Africa and while some of it is "This is how we love Jesus and you should too" some of it is also "have some rice and medical care and let's teach you how to read." My boyfriend's brother did a mission in Albania where he spent most of his time teaching English. He also talked about faith a lot, but he wasn't just there to talk about faith.

To me it sort of reminds me of that Assisi quote: Preach the Gospel at all times. When necessary, use words.

I think the Mormons just use words. I would really like it if religion was not a factor at all in voting for president, but since everybody wants to talk about it all the time, it's hard not to consider it. I wonder if this happened as much before Al Smith and later Kennedy, when everyone running was a WASP.

[UGAalum94]

I think within the Republican party evangelical Christians have/had become such an important voting block that it's being used deliberately by those who can, and those who can't sort of have to come up with something. McCain's candidacy I suppose is a significant development in this regard since they don't seem to matter much. I wonder how it will work in the general election.

Maybe I've just known some really amazing Mormons, but they were involved with organizations that tended to non-spiritual needs as well, but it wasn't in the context of their missions, so point taken.

I don't know, I just have a lot of admiration for the strength of faith required to go door to door selling Mormonism in Northern California like one Mormon kid I know did.

But again, it's not a reason that I think any should have voted for Romney or anything.

[VandalSquirrel]

This is obviously just my experiences and opinions, but I didn't know any Mormons until I was 20, and now I live in North Zion.

The Mormon missionaries I've come in contact with have all been lovely people. They obviously have a "mission" but I make it clear right off I'm happy with my religion and I'm not interested in changing. The sister and brother missionaries have always respected that, but I can't say the same for the members of Campus Crusade for Christ. I've had them help me bring in my groceries, pick up stuff I've dropped, shovel snow, help random people on the street with loading vehicles or even moving boxes and furniture in to truck or homes, and just be nice people. If you're driving around in your car they will wave and give you a smile. They've come to my church for events and not proselytized, and even though it isn't my religion, I have respect for people who have devotion to their faith enough to go out in the world and be the victims of harassment and ignorance.

Also the LDS community prepares for disasters and stocks up on food and other supplies. They were handing out food and water in New Orleans before the government was. Sure they are ultraconservative and I take issues with some of their beliefs and the role of women, but in my community they operate as good Christians. I know if there was a death in my family or my house burned down the LDS people I know would welcome me into their homes and feed me, even if I never converted.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by GeekyPenguin

But I think the difference between a Mormon missionary and your other missions is that ALL the Mormon ones seem to care about is that you come around to their way of thinking.

Exactly. The motivation for anything else is conversion.

Originally Posted by VandalSquirrel

The Mormon missionaries I've come in contact with have all been lovely people.

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

And to some degree, aren't every religions practices or beliefs a little strange to outsiders? No doubt most of what I know about Mormonism seems unusually odd but the individual Mormons I have know have demonstrated excellent character and I'd feel as/more comfortable voting for them as any evangelical Protestants.

Perhaps I was a bit flippant, but at the risk of sounding a bit more bigoted, I'll go ahead and lay out my thoughts on it. (Although I'm with you, UGAalum94, as to many evangelical Protestants.)

I'll readily agree that the Mormons I have known have almost without exception been good and caring people. My wife has Mormon cousins (converts), I have a cousin who married a Mormon but did not convert, and I have had Mormon collegues, especially in work with the Boy Scouts. (The Boy Scouts is the official LDS boys' youth organization).

I am also accutely aware that the beliefs of all religions, including my own, can seem strange or preposterous to outsiders. More than that, I am aware that my own faith is founded on the accounts of a bunch of no-account people in Palestine 2000 years ago who claimed that their no-account rabbi -- for whom there is little, if any, evidence outside the writings of his disciples that he actually lived -- (1) was God incarnate and (2) rose from the dead. So I am aware of the dangers of criticizing too much the foundations of someone else's religion.

That said, among my chief issues with Mormonism itself is the whole Joseph Smith/revelation thing. The evidence is just too strong that he made the whole thing up (and that as far as temple rituals go, he drew a great deal on masonic rituals). I would simply have a hard time trusting the judgment of a presidential candidate who accepts the Joseph Smith story.

Just to take it a step further, I would also have a hard time voting for a presidential candidate who believes that he is progressing toward his own godhood (exaltation), and who believes that unquestioning obedience to LDS Church Authorities is essential to achieving his own exaltation as well as his family's.

So, that's my feeling on the whole thing. Again, if it makes me a bigot, so be it.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Perhaps I was a bit flippant, but at the risk of sounding a bit more bigoted, I'll go ahead and lay out my thoughts on it. (Although I'm with you, UGAalum94, as to many evangelical Protestants.)

I'll readily agree that the Mormons I have known have almost without exception been good and caring people. My wife has Mormon cousins (converts), I have a cousin who married a Mormon but did not convert, and I have had Mormon collegues, especially in work with the Boy Scouts. (The Boy Scouts is the official LDS boys' youth organization).

I am also accutely aware that the beliefs of all religions, including my own, can seem strange or preposterous to outsiders. More than that, I am aware that my own faith is founded on the accounts of a bunch of no-account people in Palestine 2000 years ago who claimed that their no-account rabbi -- for whom there is little, if any, evidence outside the writings of his disciples that he actually lived -- (1) was God incarnate and (2) rose from the dead. So I am aware of the dangers of criticizing too much the foundations of someone else's religion.

That said, among my chief issues with Mormonism itself is the whole Joseph Smith/revelation thing. The evidence is just too strong that he made the whole thing up (and that as far as temple rituals go, he drew a great deal on masonic rituals). I would simply have a hard time trusting the judgment of a presidential candidate who accepts the Joseph Smith story.

Just to take it a step further, I would also have a hard time voting for a presidential candidate who believes that he is progressing toward his own godhood (exaltation), and who believes that unquestioning obedience to LDS Church Authorities is essential to achieving his own exaltation as well as his family's.

So, that's my feeling on the whole thing. Again, if it makes me a bigot, so be it.

I don't know that it makes you a bigot to declare that the story is way out there - I mean, Joseph Smith was a noted huckster who apparently made intimations that he wanted to start a religion to make money years before his "revelation" . . . besides this, the Mormon Church has a history of institutional racism, from blacks being unable to join or become priests until the mid-80s and onward, and so on and so on. I mean.

Still, have you seen the South Park episode that deals with Mormonism? It's quite brilliant - the moral is essentially "we know it's kind of silly but it doesn't matter - it works for us, and we have a good life and love each other, so why does it matter how silly or whatever it might be?"

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Still, have you seen the South Park episode that deals with Mormonism? It's quite brilliant - the moral is essentially "we know it's kind of silly but it doesn't matter - it works for us, and we have a good life and love each other, so why does it matter how silly or whatever it might be?"

Yeah, that episode is funny, and I see that perspective to a point. But then, when we have a presidential candidate holding himself out as a good Mormon and discussing the importance to him of his faith, if that perspective is at play we get into the honesty factor.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Yeah, that episode is funny, and I see that perspective to a point. But then, when we have a presidential candidate holding himself out as a good Mormon and discussing the importance to him of his faith, if that perspective is at play we get into the honesty factor.

I don't disagree - it's just a matter of the extent to which you want to extend the Church's dictum and dogma to each individual member, which is kind of natural. Personally, I find the Mormon Church's horrifically awkward treatment of blacks, gays and polygamy (which were all virtually ignored for decades after other institutions faced them head-on) no different than some American Catholic dioceses' bizarre attempts to bury or ignore improprieties by priests or officials, in that I don't really want to extend the organization's lunacy to the individual until they show that they're "playing ball" (so to speak, oops) for the org.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

I don't know that it makes you a bigot to declare that the story is way out there - I mean, Joseph Smith was a noted huckster who apparently made intimations that he wanted to start a religion to make money years before his "revelation" . . . besides this, the Mormon Church has a history of institutional racism, from blacks being unable to join or become priests until the mid-80s and onward, and so on and so on. I mean.

Still, have you seen the South Park episode that deals with Mormonism? It's quite brilliant - the moral is essentially "we know it's kind of silly but it doesn't matter - it works for us, and we have a good life and love each other, so why does it matter how silly or whatever it might be?"

I'm in no danger of converting, and yet, A) can we really rely on South Park for our presentation of a faith* and B) isn't the moral you've outlined essentially the lesson of multiculturalism to some degree?

(I LOVE South Park, but if you relied on it for its take on all religions, you'd think there was a secret code of Vatican law that promotes pedophilia, right?)

If a person has been raised in a faith, rather than converted as an adult, I don't think you can conclude, as you touch on above, that they've thought about and taken to heart every aspect, especially historical ones, that the religion has ever espoused.

ETA:* I don't mean to seem like I'm so black/white literal minded. I know you aren't suggesting South Park for religious instruction, but while Mormonism may be an easier target that some other religions, South Park can make anything look dum, dum, dum, dum, dum.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

I'm in no danger of converting, and yet, A) can we really rely on South Park for our presentation of a faith* and B) isn't the moral you've outlined essentially the lesson of multiculturalism to some degree?

(I LOVE South Park, but if you relied on it for its take on all religions, you'd think there was a secret code of Vatican law that promotes pedophilia, right?)

If a person has been raised in a faith, rather than converted as an adult, I don't think you can conclude, as you touch on above, that they've thought about and taken to heart every aspect, especially historical ones, that the religion has ever espoused.

ETA:* I don't mean to seem like I'm so black/white literal minded. I know you aren't suggesting South Park for religious instruction, but while Mormonism may be an easier target that some other religions, South Park can make anything look dum, dum, dum, dum, dum.

I have no idea what you're getting at here - as far as I know, everything in the Mormonism episode is completely and 100% factually presented, although with an obvious bias that serves to wonderfully prove their later point by inverting it. It's a literary technique - the episode was meant as a touchstone, not an exhortation to learn shit from South Park.

I'm not concluding anything from the reference, just pointing out that "faith" relies on fancy to some degree, and that some Mormons might be more open to acknowledge it than Romney has been painted in this thread (and that the danger of fanciful beliefs is in the execution, not the belief itself).

[EE-BO]

Originally Posted by GeekyPenguin

But I think the difference between a Mormon missionary and your other missions is that ALL the Mormon ones seem to care about is that you come around to their way of thinking. I have friends in what would be considered fundamentalist churches who do a lot of mission work in Africa and while some of it is "This is how we love Jesus and you should too" some of it is also "have some rice and medical care and let's teach you how to read." My boyfriend's brother did a mission in Albania where he spent most of his time teaching English. He also talked about faith a lot, but he wasn't just there to talk about faith.

Interesting bit of info along these lines. I know a guy who splits his work/life between here and Venezuela. A few months ago we were talking about what life is like for Americans down there right now because even when I was in Caracas 5 years ago US citizens had to be very careful walking around in public because of the public hatred Chavez was trying to stir up with citizens.

He mentioned at one point that Chavez had expelled all the missionary groups from Venezuela except the Catholics because the Catholics would come in and actually live among the people and help them- gaining converts by example and helping everyone whether they converted or not.

Mormon and Protestant groups were, on the other hand, sending in kids and other people for short periods of time to basically go around and preach and try to make conversions- but otherwise do nothing to help people.

The guy I know related some personal accounts as well. His home there is in the wild where he does field studies on various fish that live in the rivers there. So he was reporting from personal experience.

MysticCat- you are not being a bigot at all, just telling it like it is. I won't repeat my Mormon rant here from the other Romney thread of a few weeks ago, but if you really get into the texts and beliefs it is some way out there stuff.

The best evidence of the dangers of this cult are how guys like Jeffords can run entire towns in Utah of child molesting polygamists and nothing gets done until the federal government takes action.

Most major religious groups do their part to distance themselves from the fanatics among them and do not shield them when they break the law.

Not so with the Mormon Church which for all practical purposes runs state and local government. And I think that says it all. The sin of omission is just as bad as being a participant.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Personally, I find the Mormon Church's horrifically awkward treatment of blacks, gays and polygamy (which were all virtually ignored for decades after other institutions faced them head-on) no different than some American Catholic dioceses' bizarre attempts to bury or ignore improprieties by priests or officials, in that I don't really want to extend the organization's lunacy to the individual until they show that they're "playing ball" (so to speak, oops) for the org.

I see one difference. At least with the Catholic Church (of which I am not a member, just for full disclosure), no one tries to credibly argue that the blind eye turned to the terrible things priests did was anything but repugnant or was required by divine revelation. With the Mormons, on the other hand, polygamy and decades of terrible treatment of blacks, which were predicated on revelations binding on the faithful, were simply wiped away by new revelations. No repentence, nothing other than "new rules."

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I see one difference. At least with the Catholic Church (of which I am not a member, just for full disclosure), no one tries to credibly argue that the blind eye turned to the terrible things priests did was anything but repugnant or was required by divine revelation. With the Mormons, on the other hand, polygamy and decades of terrible treatment of blacks, which were predicated on revelations binding on the faithful, were simply wiped away by new revelations. No repentence, nothing other than "new rules."

This is largely semantic at this point, but I see where you're coming from - I'm not sure I agree 100%, but I certainly don't disagree.

[Pope]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

...the Catholic Church (of which I am not a member, just for full disclosure)...

*sniff*

This makes me sad.