Romney Bows Out

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by GeekyPenguin

But I think the difference between a Mormon missionary and your other missions is that ALL the Mormon ones seem to care about is that you come around to their way of thinking.

Exactly. The motivation for anything else is conversion.

Originally Posted by VandalSquirrel

The Mormon missionaries I've come in contact with have all been lovely people.

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

And to some degree, aren't every religions practices or beliefs a little strange to outsiders? No doubt most of what I know about Mormonism seems unusually odd but the individual Mormons I have know have demonstrated excellent character and I'd feel as/more comfortable voting for them as any evangelical Protestants.

Perhaps I was a bit flippant, but at the risk of sounding a bit more bigoted, I'll go ahead and lay out my thoughts on it. (Although I'm with you, UGAalum94, as to many evangelical Protestants.)

I'll readily agree that the Mormons I have known have almost without exception been good and caring people. My wife has Mormon cousins (converts), I have a cousin who married a Mormon but did not convert, and I have had Mormon collegues, especially in work with the Boy Scouts. (The Boy Scouts is the official LDS boys' youth organization).

I am also accutely aware that the beliefs of all religions, including my own, can seem strange or preposterous to outsiders. More than that, I am aware that my own faith is founded on the accounts of a bunch of no-account people in Palestine 2000 years ago who claimed that their no-account rabbi -- for whom there is little, if any, evidence outside the writings of his disciples that he actually lived -- (1) was God incarnate and (2) rose from the dead. So I am aware of the dangers of criticizing too much the foundations of someone else's religion.

That said, among my chief issues with Mormonism itself is the whole Joseph Smith/revelation thing. The evidence is just too strong that he made the whole thing up (and that as far as temple rituals go, he drew a great deal on masonic rituals). I would simply have a hard time trusting the judgment of a presidential candidate who accepts the Joseph Smith story.

Just to take it a step further, I would also have a hard time voting for a presidential candidate who believes that he is progressing toward his own godhood (exaltation), and who believes that unquestioning obedience to LDS Church Authorities is essential to achieving his own exaltation as well as his family's.

So, that's my feeling on the whole thing. Again, if it makes me a bigot, so be it.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Perhaps I was a bit flippant, but at the risk of sounding a bit more bigoted, I'll go ahead and lay out my thoughts on it. (Although I'm with you, UGAalum94, as to many evangelical Protestants.)

I'll readily agree that the Mormons I have known have almost without exception been good and caring people. My wife has Mormon cousins (converts), I have a cousin who married a Mormon but did not convert, and I have had Mormon collegues, especially in work with the Boy Scouts. (The Boy Scouts is the official LDS boys' youth organization).

I am also accutely aware that the beliefs of all religions, including my own, can seem strange or preposterous to outsiders. More than that, I am aware that my own faith is founded on the accounts of a bunch of no-account people in Palestine 2000 years ago who claimed that their no-account rabbi -- for whom there is little, if any, evidence outside the writings of his disciples that he actually lived -- (1) was God incarnate and (2) rose from the dead. So I am aware of the dangers of criticizing too much the foundations of someone else's religion.

That said, among my chief issues with Mormonism itself is the whole Joseph Smith/revelation thing. The evidence is just too strong that he made the whole thing up (and that as far as temple rituals go, he drew a great deal on masonic rituals). I would simply have a hard time trusting the judgment of a presidential candidate who accepts the Joseph Smith story.

Just to take it a step further, I would also have a hard time voting for a presidential candidate who believes that he is progressing toward his own godhood (exaltation), and who believes that unquestioning obedience to LDS Church Authorities is essential to achieving his own exaltation as well as his family's.

So, that's my feeling on the whole thing. Again, if it makes me a bigot, so be it.

I don't know that it makes you a bigot to declare that the story is way out there - I mean, Joseph Smith was a noted huckster who apparently made intimations that he wanted to start a religion to make money years before his "revelation" . . . besides this, the Mormon Church has a history of institutional racism, from blacks being unable to join or become priests until the mid-80s and onward, and so on and so on. I mean.

Still, have you seen the South Park episode that deals with Mormonism? It's quite brilliant - the moral is essentially "we know it's kind of silly but it doesn't matter - it works for us, and we have a good life and love each other, so why does it matter how silly or whatever it might be?"

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Still, have you seen the South Park episode that deals with Mormonism? It's quite brilliant - the moral is essentially "we know it's kind of silly but it doesn't matter - it works for us, and we have a good life and love each other, so why does it matter how silly or whatever it might be?"

Yeah, that episode is funny, and I see that perspective to a point. But then, when we have a presidential candidate holding himself out as a good Mormon and discussing the importance to him of his faith, if that perspective is at play we get into the honesty factor.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Yeah, that episode is funny, and I see that perspective to a point. But then, when we have a presidential candidate holding himself out as a good Mormon and discussing the importance to him of his faith, if that perspective is at play we get into the honesty factor.

I don't disagree - it's just a matter of the extent to which you want to extend the Church's dictum and dogma to each individual member, which is kind of natural. Personally, I find the Mormon Church's horrifically awkward treatment of blacks, gays and polygamy (which were all virtually ignored for decades after other institutions faced them head-on) no different than some American Catholic dioceses' bizarre attempts to bury or ignore improprieties by priests or officials, in that I don't really want to extend the organization's lunacy to the individual until they show that they're "playing ball" (so to speak, oops) for the org.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Personally, I find the Mormon Church's horrifically awkward treatment of blacks, gays and polygamy (which were all virtually ignored for decades after other institutions faced them head-on) no different than some American Catholic dioceses' bizarre attempts to bury or ignore improprieties by priests or officials, in that I don't really want to extend the organization's lunacy to the individual until they show that they're "playing ball" (so to speak, oops) for the org.

I see one difference. At least with the Catholic Church (of which I am not a member, just for full disclosure), no one tries to credibly argue that the blind eye turned to the terrible things priests did was anything but repugnant or was required by divine revelation. With the Mormons, on the other hand, polygamy and decades of terrible treatment of blacks, which were predicated on revelations binding on the faithful, were simply wiped away by new revelations. No repentence, nothing other than "new rules."

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I see one difference. At least with the Catholic Church (of which I am not a member, just for full disclosure), no one tries to credibly argue that the blind eye turned to the terrible things priests did was anything but repugnant or was required by divine revelation. With the Mormons, on the other hand, polygamy and decades of terrible treatment of blacks, which were predicated on revelations binding on the faithful, were simply wiped away by new revelations. No repentence, nothing other than "new rules."

This is largely semantic at this point, but I see where you're coming from - I'm not sure I agree 100%, but I certainly don't disagree.

[Pope]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

...the Catholic Church (of which I am not a member, just for full disclosure)...

*sniff*

This makes me sad.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

I don't know that it makes you a bigot to declare that the story is way out there - I mean, Joseph Smith was a noted huckster who apparently made intimations that he wanted to start a religion to make money years before his "revelation" . . . besides this, the Mormon Church has a history of institutional racism, from blacks being unable to join or become priests until the mid-80s and onward, and so on and so on. I mean.

Still, have you seen the South Park episode that deals with Mormonism? It's quite brilliant - the moral is essentially "we know it's kind of silly but it doesn't matter - it works for us, and we have a good life and love each other, so why does it matter how silly or whatever it might be?"

I'm in no danger of converting, and yet, A) can we really rely on South Park for our presentation of a faith* and B) isn't the moral you've outlined essentially the lesson of multiculturalism to some degree?

(I LOVE South Park, but if you relied on it for its take on all religions, you'd think there was a secret code of Vatican law that promotes pedophilia, right?)

If a person has been raised in a faith, rather than converted as an adult, I don't think you can conclude, as you touch on above, that they've thought about and taken to heart every aspect, especially historical ones, that the religion has ever espoused.

ETA:* I don't mean to seem like I'm so black/white literal minded. I know you aren't suggesting South Park for religious instruction, but while Mormonism may be an easier target that some other religions, South Park can make anything look dum, dum, dum, dum, dum.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

I'm in no danger of converting, and yet, A) can we really rely on South Park for our presentation of a faith* and B) isn't the moral you've outlined essentially the lesson of multiculturalism to some degree?

(I LOVE South Park, but if you relied on it for its take on all religions, you'd think there was a secret code of Vatican law that promotes pedophilia, right?)

If a person has been raised in a faith, rather than converted as an adult, I don't think you can conclude, as you touch on above, that they've thought about and taken to heart every aspect, especially historical ones, that the religion has ever espoused.

ETA:* I don't mean to seem like I'm so black/white literal minded. I know you aren't suggesting South Park for religious instruction, but while Mormonism may be an easier target that some other religions, South Park can make anything look dum, dum, dum, dum, dum.

I have no idea what you're getting at here - as far as I know, everything in the Mormonism episode is completely and 100% factually presented, although with an obvious bias that serves to wonderfully prove their later point by inverting it. It's a literary technique - the episode was meant as a touchstone, not an exhortation to learn shit from South Park.

I'm not concluding anything from the reference, just pointing out that "faith" relies on fancy to some degree, and that some Mormons might be more open to acknowledge it than Romney has been painted in this thread (and that the danger of fanciful beliefs is in the execution, not the belief itself).

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

I have no idea what you're getting at here - as far as I know, everything in the Mormonism episode is completely and 100% factually presented, although with an obvious bias that serves to wonderfully prove their later point by inverting it. It's a literary technique - the episode was meant as a touchstone, not an exhortation to learn shit from South Park.

I'm not concluding anything from the reference, just pointing out that "faith" relies on fancy to some degree, and that some Mormons might be more open to acknowledge it than Romney has been painted in this thread (and that the danger of fanciful beliefs is in the execution, not the belief itself).

I wasn't getting at much. Basically I agree with you. I just thought it was worth noting that South Park can make religions look even sillier than they are. And yeah, I understand satire.

What the episode presented also lines up with what I know about Mormonism, as little as it is, and the musical chorus of dum, dum, dum, dum, dum works better the more authentic the presentation is.

And yet, the goofy seeming history probably doesn't inform much of a current Mormon's faith anyway, which I think is part of your point about Romney, but not so much a point of South Park's general attitude toward religions.

Hasn't Romney kind of made the point that it's the faith that he grew up with, maybe as a way to suggest what you are saying, "yep, I'm Mormon but it's something I might have taken for granted rather than embraced intellectually as an adult?"