Spirituality and Character in Fraternities...

[Kevin]

BYX, if you want to know, please see my earlier comments regarding the fact that many if not most of us are goody-two-shoes much like you.

The drinking in letters thing has zero to do with Christianity, btw.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by BYXEagle

I do have a problem with other fraternities that don't act Christian getting offended by the Christian fraternity thing. . . . I just have a hard time understanding why so many regular fraternities attack Christian fraternities etc.

In addition to what Kevin said above, with which I agree, I think you may have inadvertently hit on part of the reason yourself.

I've had no firsthand experience with BYX, so please don't take this as criticism of your org. The "Christian" fraternities and organizations that I have been exposed to, however, have represented a fairly narrow slice of Christianity -- specifically, the conservative, more fundamentalist slice. They did not have wide appeal for mainline Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, etc. Yet more than once, I ran into the attitude that if one did not embrace their specific manifestation of Christianity, both in belief and behavior, one was not really Christian.

Frankly, that experience makes me wonder what you mean by "other fraternities that don't act Christian." I also wonder if what you consider not acting Christian would match up with I consider not acting Christian.

Rightly or wrongly, perhaps some see an implicit assertion just by the existence of "Christian fraternities" that one cannot be in a "regular fraternity" if one is "really Christian."

[DaemonSeid]

A student renounces his letters because he believes that Greekdom takes away from being spiritual

http://www.bet.com/News/GreekLifeGod...ionUnpublished

[MysticCat]

^^^^ The article mentions Minister Fred Hatchett. Many here at GC remember him all too well.

[Kevin]

Yeah, Hatchett is a nutjob. He doesn't even belong in this conversation.

[owlie33]

This has been an interesting read; I thought I would throw in my 2 cents:

If you are not a born-again Christian, you don't know what it means to "act Christian" or possibly even what it means to be Christian. Therefore, when someone says you aren't Christian, it can be offensive...kind of like someone is telling you that you are a bad person.

That said, there are plenty of wonderful, good, kind human beings in this world who are not born-again Christians....just as there are many professing Christians who are not living their faith.

Just because you join an organization based on Christian values and ideals does not mean you are a Christian or that your organization is either. Someone can hold high the ideals of a faith but not be a believer. Works don't give you faith.

Is the reverse true? Someone who professes to be Christian lives their life in a way not purposely honoring God (not specifically dis-honoring God), is not a born-again, blood-bought Christian according to James 2.

We live our lives on purpose - is that purpose to honor God as a follower of Christ or is it something else?

OK - that's all for me.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by owlie33

If you are not a born-again Christian, you don't know what it means to "act Christian" or possibly even what it means to be Christian.

And you prove my point. The label "born again Christian" used the way you used it, and some of the theological assumptions that tend to go along with it, is a term pretty much limited to the conservative, more fundamentalist slice of Christianity. As a life-long Presbyterian, I have never, ever heard the term used in Presbyterian circles -- it's just not how we talk. Likewise for my fairly extensive dealings with Lutheran, Anglican/Episcopal, Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christians.

So it's really not a matter of me thinking that someone is accusing me of being a bad person at all. It's a matter of someone telling me that I'm not really Christian simply because I do not share their particular understanding of what that means -- never mind that I do share the faith that the vast majority of Christians have professed for the last 2000 years.

And it's precisely that attitude that has led many people to be wary of some of the "Christian" groups on college campuses.

[owlie33]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

And you prove my point. The label "born again Christian" used the way you used it, and some of the theological assumptions that tend to go along with it, is a term pretty much limited to the conservative, more fundamentalist slice of Christianity. As a life-long Presbyterian, I have never, ever heard the term used in Presbyterian circles -- it's just not how we talk. Likewise for my fairly extensive dealings with Lutheran, Anglican/Episcopal, Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christians.

Yes, the term "born-again", referring to salvation, is most predominantly used in evangelical circles (It originated in John 3:3...it's not just a made-up label).

Lutheran, Anglican, Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christians have a vastly different opinion of when salvation occurs - baptism - than do Evangelicals - thus the differing opinion.

I believe regardless of the denomination, God calls us to be a body of believers.

[owlie33]

Originally Posted by elwoodpfiggs

IWhat do you think? I'd particuarly like to hear from some Kappa Sigs about this. "The star and cresent shall not be worn by any man," right? Our creed says we are to be gentlemen and men of God. Do we still believe this, or is it time to change the creed? Is it time to put a new character education program in place?

If you say you believe something, it's time to turn those values into action! This may mean being more discerning while selecting members, better member education or maybe just a shift in chapter programming.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by owlie33

Yes, the term "born-again", referring to salvation, is most predominantly used in evangelical circles (It originated in John 3:3...it's not just a made-up label).

Lutheran, Anglican, Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christians have a vastly different opinion of when salvation occurs - baptism - than do Evangelicals - thus the differing opinion.

I believe regardless of the denomination, God calls us to be a body of believers.

only reason why I think saying you can't be Greek and still believe in God is a crock:

One of my founders is a pastor....

A lot of our priciples are based on Christian beliefs.

If anything, one of the things I was taught in life as well as during my process is that you as a person should have a belief in something...u don't have to be a Baptist or whatever...but you should have a belief system that has been instilled since childhood.

Works for me....

[Tom Earp]

I guess then, it is in the eye of the poster.

All GLOs were started with a Religion back ground whether Christian or Jewish.

Being reborn again, I am not really sure what that means?

Were those before nothing but sinners?

Do they beleive in a Single God?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by owlie33

Yes, the term "born-again", referring to salvation, is most predominantly used in evangelical circles (It originated in John 3:3...it's not just a made-up label).

Lutheran, Anglican, Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christians have a vastly different opinion of when salvation occurs - baptism - than do Evangelicals - thus the differing opinion.

But do you see why:

1) When, as you acknowledge, the term "born-again" is used predominantly in evangelical circles (and I know well the reference in John);

2) When, as you acknowledge, Lutheran, Anglican, Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christians (and you can add Presbyterians and others to that list) have a very different idea of "when" salvation occurs and do not identify it with a moment of "being saved" or "accepting Christ," which the term born-again implies; and

3) You say: "If you are not a born-again Christian, you don't know what it means to 'act Christian' or possibly even what it means to be Christian,"

Christians who don't share your particular evangelical viewpoint might understand you to be saying that they are not really Christians? Because that is the point here. And that, I think, is the source of at least some of the distrust and antagonism seen on some campuses.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Tom Earp

All GLOs were started with a Religion back ground whether Christian or Jewish.

No, Tom, they weren't.

The earliest GLOs, starting with Phi Beta Kappa, were started with an Enlightenment, humanist or rationalist background. After all, the very motto of Phi Beta Kappa, "Philosophy, the Guide (Helmsman) of Life," is a challenge to the view that God, Scripture or Religion is the "Guide of Life." The earliest GLOs were cut from a similar Enlightenment/rationalist/Deist cloth. It wasn't until later that GLOs began to take on a more Christian, and later Jewish, focus.

And many GLOs were were specifically founded with a non-sectarian focus, seeking to overcome divisions based on religion.

[BYXEagle]

Drinking in letters is a choice BYX as an organization made. I understand that drinking in letters has nothing to do with Christianity. I do agree that being in a Christian fraternity does not mean you are a Christian. There are some of those Christian fraternities that call people who don't believe the same as them non Christian but that is an individual chapter thing not a national thing. I think it's perfectly possible to be in a regular Greek Life organization and be a Christian. Life is about choices, and if you make the right choices then you won't have to sacrifice your morals or things like that. We call ourselves a Christian fraternity because we are different from any other regular fraternity. If that offends people then that sucks. And to cover the question brought up earlier as far as what defines Christian acts etc. I don't have a problem with drinking. I have a problem with drunkeness. I don't believe that sleeping around is Christian. I know you may say that is stereotypical, but it does happen. It's not all that happens, but at some fraternities it does happen. I don't know why regular fraternities and Christian fraternites won't commit to building better relationships and working together.

[SWTXBelle]

BYXEagle - "sucks" what? I've always forbidden my children and students from saying "That sucks" because of the origin of the phrase. So I'm interested in the fact that you used it when discussing your Christian organization.
And, long story short, the conflict between the so-called Christian fraternities and traditional ones comes from any GLO acting holier-than-thou. Once you start deciding who is a Christian and who is not you are bound to engender ill-will. I think Christ-like humility would go a long way to fostering relationships with other groups.