Charles Taylor and Pat Robertson

[AlphaSigOU]

Bin Laden and his cronies need desperately Preparation H-Bomb (B61 model or better) to soothe their inflamed anti-American passions.

[moe.ron]

Originally posted by Shortfuse
We're here>><< on that last poing Rudey. It's crazy and I feel that we should've pour more man-power into capturing him first. With our technology, he'd should've been found a long time ago.

The main problem with the US inteligence is it's over reliance on technology and less on human inteligence. South East Asia, after the Bali bombing, has dome remarkable job in locating and arresting terrorists because of its human inteligence capability. By all account, Jemmah islamiyah has been crippled. Ironically, the Phillipines is the weakest link in that region, yet it receive the most from the United States.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by moe.ron
The main problem with the US inteligence is it's over reliance on technology and less on human inteligence. South East Asia, after the Bali bombing, has dome remarkable job in locating and arresting terrorists because of its human inteligence capability. By all account, Jemmah islamiyah has been crippled. Ironically, the Phillipines is the weakest link in that region, yet it receive the most from the United States.

What are you basing this on??

-Rudey

[moe.ron]

Originally posted by Rudey
What are you basing this on??

-Rudey

Which one? the lack of human inteligence or Phillipines as the weak link in South East Asia? Or both?

[Rudey]

Originally posted by moe.ron
Which one? the lack of human inteligence or Phillipines as the weak link in South East Asia? Or both?

That the terrorist problems in that region are solved minus the Phillipines.

-Rudey

[moe.ron]

Originally posted by Rudey
That the terrorist problems in that region are solved minus the Phillipines.

-Rudey

Never said that it was solved. And I quote, "By all account, Jemmah islamiyah has been crippled." What I meant by this quote is that JI is on the run. Most of their leaderships are behind bars are on the run. There has been reports that JI has changed its tactic from indiscriminate bombing (ie Bali bombing), to target assasination. This is due to the fact that many within JI disagreed with the Bali bombing (as incredible as it sound, it created a split within the organization that resulted in many to quit the organization).

Here is a brief article on JI that is outdated, a year outdated, but many of the info are still relevant:

http://www.crisisweb.org/home/index.cfm?id=1452&l=1

Here is an article by the International Herdl Tribune which argued that the Phillipines is the weakest link:

Link to Article

And here is the actual report, also made by the ICG, about the Philippines and terrorism:

Link to the ICG Article

[lifesaver]

Originally posted by Love_Spell_6
WOW. you put a lot of time in your post to disseminate incorrect information LOL. If you really think the radical muslims don't dislike us in part because of our MTV culture, you're either misinformed or sadly mistaken. Do your research before you try to contradict me

I didnt try to contradict you. I did contradict you.

It wasnt that much time. Since I am incredibly smart, I can rattle off this stuff all day, and really fast too.

I did my research. My minor is in middle eastern politics.

I did more research than a search through my favorites web-sites.

I did more research on this subject than you could ever-imagine.

I definately did more academic research than the two of the three sources you posted. One was a guys blog that also had a short story on Vampires, and another was from what looks like a church newsletter. Hardly academic.

I'll grant you that I didnt cite any sources at all. Beacuse I wasnt posting a dissertation. I was simply making an observation that, while you may be an incredibly intellegent woman, you sounded INCREDIBLY unimformed with your comment of "Hmm...well in the eyes of Bin Laden...that is true! He doesn't refer to us as infidels for nothing!" Becasue again, Pat Robertson was climing that the 9/11 attacks were brought by GOD. You made an argument for pat Robertson that he didnt even make.

Now, for your statements on my argument. I should have clarified that my point on Bin- Laden wanting us out of the mid-east wasnt the only motivating factor in the 9/11 attacks, but it was the primary factor.

An additional factor that you brought up was a valid one, but unfortunately I believe it / you has the wrong interpertation. From your source:

The more extreme elements detest McDonald's for capturing the gastronomical enthusiasm of their children. They loath MTV for driving their teenagers toward the impure thoughts of sex and individualism and away from the thoughts of the Koran and Allah. They resent the Christian missionaries from Kansas for converting wavering believers into admires of Jesus Christ. They curse the U.S. military troops stationed in their countries for illuminating their impotency. (A parallel to a point I made.) They attack giant multinational corporations headquarted in the towers of New York for selling material dreams that impoverished Muslims cannot afford and that only end up manufacturing frustration.

In its totality, much of the extremist musulm world actually has a love hate relationship with us. Especially the young. They know from history that their culture used to be the premier culture and led the world in art, music, science, literature. Now they are among the poorest peoples on the planet and have seen their once great culture eclipsed by the western cultures. Its a mix of shame and jealousy. That jealousy often gets corrupted into rage. Rage against the western cultures. Yet, many, especially the youth are drwan to western culture. Example, in iran, its illegal to watch western TV or non approved media, yet almost everyone has a sattelite dish that they bring inside and hide during the day and place on their balconies at night so they can watch western TV. Many in Iran watch as much NBC or HBO as you or I do.

Often, people like OBL use the "Western Culture" as a catch all to rally their followers. I dont doubt OBL might resent the things Pat Robertson listed. I highly doubt that would have been the central, or even periphial reasons for the 9/11 attacks. (it makes for good Sunday Morning Service fodder, but thats all) Again, he seems to be primarily concerned with the western armies occupying their holy lands.

The "more extreme believers" and I have one thing in common.
They resent the Christian missionaries from Kansas for converting wavering believers into admires of Jesus Christ.

I resent those people too. They give christianity a bad name. Like those two broads from Waco who were jailed by the taliband in 2001 that the US Army had to stop what they were doing and go in and rescue them. Shouldda left them stupid bitches there to face their fate. If their faith was so strong, it, instead of the US army and my tax dollars should have carried them out of there.

Zealots in any religion are nothing but trouble.

Also, I dont belong to any 'MTV Culture.' My soul isnt owned by Viacom.

Oh, and the Taliband were incredibly gay. Not gehy, but gay. They liked the booty sex. Afghanis view of sexuality is much more fluid and is seen as more of an 'active vs passive partner' kinda thing. Women are off limits, your in a foxhole fighting the northern alliance, yada, yada, yada.


*Edited to correct the spelling errors I cared to go back and look for and change the term 'gals' to bitches in the section about the dumb bitches from Waco.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by moe.ron
The main problem with the US inteligence is it's over reliance on technology and less on human inteligence. South East Asia, after the Bali bombing, has dome remarkable job in locating and arresting terrorists because of its human inteligence capability. By all account, Jemmah islamiyah has been crippled. Ironically, the Phillipines is the weakest link in that region, yet it receive the most from the United States.

ALL intellligence is flawed. The US used to have a balanced approach of technology and human resources. As a result of the Church Hearings of 1975, the Ford Administration dramaticaly curtailed the human side of American intelligence gathering capabilities.

The current Bush Administration has restored much, if not all, of these capabilities. Because it takes time to build relationships, it will take years to bring this aspect of intelligence to full strength.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by Shortfuse
How so Russ? If we didn't support Saudi Arabia, how could he still have beef with the US. His earlier actions (unless I'm wrong) never indicated that he had issues withthe US. Heck he actually helped us out by draining the Soviets in Afghanistan.

What behvaviors of Muslims is Bin Laden overlooking?

Bin Laden is primarily at war with Modernity. Not the Saudis, and not the US.

The US, more than any other nation, represents modernity. The US, more than any other nation, exports the cultural products of modernity. Bin Laden wants MTV (among other things) to no longer be available to Muslims. Even if the US did not support Saudi Arabia, there would still be MTV, and it would still be exported. That's why Bin Laden would still have a major grievance with the US.

Modernity and Western Civilization are the larger issue. Islam is a Western religion, and Arabian culture is also Western, and Bin Laden rejects this. Its important to understand that Islam is Western. It shares the same roots with Judaism and Christianity. It does not share a heritage with Budhism, Hinduism, and other Eastern religions. Its even more important to understand that Arabian culture is Western. It has far more in common with Europe, than it does with the Ming Dynasty, and it was the ideas of Arabian scholars that helped build the foundation of the European Renaissance.

Until the European Renaissance, which never really ended, every great civilization entered a period of stagnation and then relative decline. Including Islamic Arabia. They were great, and they no longer are. It was ideas from Arabian scholars that provided the beginning to much of the Renaissance. The Renaissance staged the birth of the Enlightenment in the mid-18th century. At this time, Arabia was past the point of stagnation, and well into a period of relative decline. Wahabism was born, and less than 20 years later, the first nation ever founded on ideas, the U.S., was born. The ideology that forged the U.S., more than anything else, was the Enlightenment.

The U.S. can trace part of its ideoligical lineage to Arabia, and where those common ideas failed to sustain Arabia, they helped propel the U.S. to become the most powerful nation on Earth. Make no mistake about it, Arabs are extremely jealous of the U.S., and Bin Laden is no exception. They feel robbed, even though their decline is their own fault. They, like other civilizations, became arrogant, and stagnated. The ideas of the Enlightenment don't allow for that.

The Enlightenment is the basis for Modernity, and Bin Laden hates this with every fiber of his being. He especially hates that the Saudi Royal Family embraces Modernity on the weekends, while vacationing in Europe, and then embraces Wahabism when its convenient.

Bin Laden wants a world that died hundreds of years ago. No nation is keeping that world from him more than the U.S.

[swissmiss04]

Good post, Russ!

Extremists like Bin Laden view anything new (even things like cars) as bida'a which in Arabic means "innovation", but not innovation in the sense of progress, but innovation as in "perversion". There's nothing in Islam that forbids things like TV, computers, or technology in general. They just see only the negative aspects and declare it bad without realizing that there's a lot of good in technology as well.

Frankly, I hope we take a bit of our technology and pay him a visit, so to speak.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by swissmiss04
Good post, Russ!

Extremists like Bin Laden view anything new (even things like cars) as bida'a which in Arabic means "innovation", but not innovation in the sense of progress, but innovation as in "perversion". There's nothing in Islam that forbids things like TV, computers, or technology in general. They just see only the negative aspects and declare it bad without realizing that there's a lot of good in technology as well.

Frankly, I hope we take a bit of our technology and pay him a visit, so to speak.

Thanks.

What I find perplexing is people who think that the U.S. is responsible for the creation of Al Qaeda. The dynamics that brought about its creation predate the existence of the U.S. Its as if the history of the world began in 1980, and only events that occurred after 1980 should be considered, and only in the context of a world that never had a Cold War. Leftists have a very bizarre world view when it comes to Al Qaeda.

[Shortfuse]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
Thanks.

What I find perplexing is people who think that the U.S. is responsible for the creation of Al Qaeda. The dynamics that brought about its creation predate the existence of the U.S. Its as if the history of the world began in 1980, and only events that occurred after 1980 should be considered, and only in the context of a world that never had a Cold War. Leftists have a very bizarre world view when it comes to Al Qaeda.

NOBODY said that the US is responsible for Al Qaeda, heck I've even said that this org was mainly created to battle the Saudi Government cause Bin Laden felt that it was wrong. Al Qaeda would also go into Afghanistan to fight the soviets there, which we were giving "military aid" to at the time. The US is over 200 years old, please break down the history of Al Qaeda for us.


P.S. the US have had it's hand in Middle East affairs for a LOOOOONNNGGGG Time. The CIA was partially reponsible for overthrowning the Democratically elected government in Iran in the mid 50s thus bringing in the brutal Shah of Iran.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by Shortfuse
NOBODY said that the US is responsible for Al Qaeda, heck I've even said that this org was mainly created to battle the Saudi Government cause Bin Laden felt that it was wrong. Al Qaeda would also go into Afghanistan to fight the soviets there, which we were giving "military aid" to at the time. The US is over 200 years old, please break down the history of Al Qaeda for us.


P.S. the US have had it's hand in Middle East affairs for a LOOOOONNNGGGG Time. The CIA was partially reponsible for overthrowning the Democratically elected government in Iran in the mid 50s thus bringing in the brutal Shah of Iran.

"Al Qaeda would also go into Afghanistan to fight the soviets there, which we were giving "military aid" to at the time." Al Qaeda was formed in 1989, after Bin Laden was involved in the Afghani resistance. They are Wahabists, which is a sect that was founded prior to the creation of the U.S.

The other primary Islao-Fascist organization, that is not primarily concerned with Israel, is the Islamic Brotherhood. They were founded in 1928, before the US was heavily involved in the region.