Hazing Experience

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by Canadian AOII
k this is a bit of a hijack which might actually be a good thing but i'm sorry is there sthg wrong w/ referring to a fraternity as a frat? some ppl in this post seem to be offended at fraternities being called frats and i've never heard of that before...

Yes, "frat" is considered a term used for highly dysfunctional chapters with huge risk management issues. It is a pejorative term.

[Godfather]

Originally posted by LXAAlum
If by "different from the norm" you mean they haze, when they know they shouldn't (either from a rules/policies perspective, or perhaps by simple common sense), then I'd rather be part of the norm.

If you feel hazing is SO important that it can't be eliminated without destroying your chapter, why don't you go ahead and advertise the fact - "join our fraternity - we'll humiliate and beat the crap out of you to make you a 'real' man!"...see what kind of response you get from PM's and the rest of the greek/campus community...

We don't lay a hand on our pledges, nor do we force them to drink, as I already said. Exercise and making them memorize things (With the consequence of getting yelled at, etc.) is an entirely different animal.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by Godfather
We don't lay a hand on our pledges, nor do we force them to drink, as I already said. Exercise and making them memorize things (With the consequence of getting yelled at, etc.) is an entirely different animal.

Many on GC might not disagree with the above except for two rather important issues.

First, they are against your organizations rules.

Second, they are against the law.

It's unfortunate that seemingly innocent things are considered hazing -- but we brought the rules on ourselves by letting hazing get way out of hand.

So, the bottom line is that if you haze and get caught, you're history.

Edited to add...

I'm sitting here in a slow burn, so I guess it's worth putting this on the table as well.

One of the things that really ticks me off about the arrogance of chapters when it comes to hazing is that, in the long run, it is someone like me or another alum who has to go investigate charges and decide on the fate of the chapter. That really sucks! We are a part of your brotherhood. It is one of the hardest things you can imagine to face. We don't want to close chapters! Why would anyone imagine that someone who has worked for years, as a volunteer, for the Fraternity would want to weaken it?

Nobody wants to be put in that position, but the stupidity of people who simply won't comply with the clearly stated rules and/or the laws of the city or state bring these penalties on themselves -- and then whine about how awful and unfair nationals or the university administration or the Chapter Advisor or the House Corporation or the Division officers or the university police or the city police are.

The rules are there. The laws are in place. Just grow up and obey them. Or work to get them changed.

[LXAAlum]

Originally posted by Godfather
We don't lay a hand on our pledges, nor do we force them to drink, as I already said. Exercise and making them memorize things (With the consequence of getting yelled at, etc.) is an entirely different animal.

So, if I read this correctly, you're saying "it's OK - we only haze them in specific ways, not in others...", correct?

That's like saying "I'm only a little bit pregnant"

What starts or seems to be only harmless pranks will eventually escalate, with no one in the chapter noticing the slight, yet ever ocurring, escalation, will eventually lead to disaster.

The real scary part is the forced exercise - what if? What if someone has a physical ailment that they don't disclose, even if asked? (heart condition, diabetes, epilepsy - all aggravated by stress (e.g. exercise)). What if something happens? The chapter WILL be held accountable, even with the lame excuse of "we didn't know" being offered.

The "different animal" you describe is still a dangerous one, and, given time, WILL bite you in the end.

DA, you're right - closing a chapter is something we ever WANT to see happen, but, for the greater good, sometimes it's the ONLY thing to do to wake up the remaining chapters of the fraternity that certain behavior is against the rules, and the rules must be enforced.

As I've said before, we are all somewhat responsible for the creation of today's hazing issues...what DA may have gone through in years past, described has "fun" or "harmless" activities, or to other members in this forum, have unfortunately escalated to the dangerous practices that make headlines and take lives today. If we are to move forward, we have to take whatever actions necessary to ensure that BROTHERHOOD is emphasized, not the humiliating activities that are purported to promote it, but instead promote the opposite: anger, divisiveness, and resentment.

So, please answer my original question: If you feel hazing is SO important that it can't be eliminated without destroying your chapter, why don't you go ahead and advertise the fact - "join our fraternity - we'll humiliate and beat the crap out of you to make you a 'real' man!"?

[Tom Earp]

I do not beleive Your Fraterity specifically chooses what Chapters can do certain things that are against National Rules! Or for that fact any Chapter.

No matter What "Fraternity" SX, LXA, or DTD to use the three that have been mentioned, it still boils down the the fact that that those that Haze cost their Fraternity money in the long run.

You try to make a point, but you have a lost cause here in GC! Yes I am sure We all wish that We Could Force the New Associates (Not Pledges( to us, that while it is important that Grades are very important in so many ways to at the final Graduate from College, it is still hazing to force them to! That basically is Hazing!

Forcing The New Members to Do something that is not expected for All, then it becomes Hazing!

Oh, by the way, "Frat" is truely not an endearing term, not for the "perjative" or the word for small Chapters!

It is used in a derogatory Term for People Who Do Not Know Better!



If you are going to post, then please understand the words you are using!

[starang21]

clearly, this young man doesn't practice a whole lot of "discretion." ever stop to think that one of your frat's national officers could be on this site?

[Rudey]

It's results that matter. My chapter was refounded my freshman year and tripled in size. Every brother that graduated has placed in top jobs across the world and amazing law/med schools. We've all had tons of fun, dated sorority girls, won awards, gone to convention. And somehow we can all tell you about our founding, the founders - our brothers can recite backwards small details such as hometowns of founders. We always followed a mantra of doing things we felt comfortable telling parents about. Because of our efforts, we were rewarded nationally with cash grants and had our dues reduced slightly even.

What did your chapter do that it was so great? Are you really that great that you can brag?

This isn't some stupid military experience. The fact that people treat their houses like they went through a gang initiation is ridiculous. While bragging about who has it rougher, there are houses out there bragging about who has it better...about which houses have brothers that stayed up with a pledge to read their history book for a class they weren't even in to help them study and do well, the houses that have fun parties and don't need to brag that they had to earn it - they earned it by being great men and showed it by what they were after they graduated.

-Rudey

[Kevin]

Every once in awhile, we'll get someone like this on GC. My favorite thing is that althoug they are "proud" of their "tradition" and loyalty and blah blah blah, they are afraid to tell us what organization and what chapter they belong to.

Maybe worried national officers will find out?

Why should a chapter be doing something that their national officers would disapprove of?

How is that respectful to the organization?

Sounds pretty arrogant to me.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by Rudey
It's results that matter. My chapter was refounded my freshman year and tripled in size. Every brother that graduated has placed in top jobs across the world and amazing law/med schools. We've all had tons of fun, dated sorority girls, won awards, gone to convention. And somehow we can all tell you about our founding, the founders - our brothers can recite backwards small details such as hometowns of founders. We always followed a mantra of doing things we felt comfortable telling parents about. Because of our efforts, we were rewarded nationally with cash grants and had our dues reduced slightly even.

What did your chapter do that it was so great? Are you really that great that you can brag?

This isn't some stupid military experience. The fact that people treat their houses like they went through a gang initiation is ridiculous. While bragging about who has it rougher, there are houses out there bragging about who has it better...about which houses have brothers that stayed up with a pledge to read their history book for a class they weren't even in to help them study and do well, the houses that have fun parties and don't need to brag that they had to earn it - they earned it by being great men and showed it by what they were after they graduated.

-Rudey

Rudey,

That post makes me proud to know you, even if I only know you online.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by Rudey
While bragging about who has it rougher, there are houses out there bragging about who has it better...

Great point! Thanks, Rudey.

[LatinaAlumna]

Originally posted by Godfather
And without hazing or at least having to work hard to get in instead of following some BS associate member path or being a brother immediately I wouldn't have done it. Anything worth doing is worth working for. I am just one of those people who doesn't like having everything handed to me go figure...

There is a difference between working hard to earn your membership and being hazed. My line sisters and I never worked so hard in our lives to be professional and put forth our best effort each and every day of our process (and even moreso once we became sisters). I learned lessons in that process that have served me well in all areas of my life, and I met challenges that I never thought I would be able to. It was not easy, but I was never once degraded or coerced into doing anything that I would not want to do.

[Tom Earp]

Kuddos to all of the above Posters, LXAAlum, DeltaAlum, Rudey, and LatinaAlumna!

Hazing can come in many forms and it can be harmful in many ways to a young and impressive person.

Beating or Berating someone is not impressive to me! It is demeaning and I for one would have dropped them like a hot rock!

We used to have a thing of lighting the match and reciting the Greek Alphabet, the Actives first and then see if the Alums could do it then the Associates. It was a very subtle hint, a maybe you need to study, learn and have a little fun out of it! Not to berate them but to try and show what it took to learn about not only Our Fraternity, but the Total Greek World.

I guess, it takes someone getting hurt, harmed or killed to make someone come tho thier senses, then the problem is, it is done and The Boys will Be Boys goes right out of the window along with the Charter!

This helps no one, Your Fraternity/Soroity is closed and there may never be any new Brothers/Sisters ever again or for at least 3-5 years!

Now that would really make an impression on me!

[CC1GC]

Originally posted by starang21
clearly, this young man doesn't practice a whole lot of "discretion." ever stop to think that one of your frat's national officers could be on this site?

you'd be surprised...some executive officers wouldn't care unless complaints are filed.

[cultural]

Hazing is not necessary to build bonds of brotherhood and sisterhood. The founding mothers of my sorority were hazed and that is a major reason why they all left the group they were a part of before. I know hazing is a terrible thing and I feel sorry that they had to go through it, each of them well up with tears when they talk about the abuse and humilation they went through.

I am happy to have chosen this group because I will never have to go through such an experience. When I hear about how they were told to carry a pledge booklet, wear a pledge symbol at all times unless they were showering and quizzed with their eyes closed. Could you believe they had just recently met those people and they were told to stand in a line with their eyes closed and say "Yes, big sister. . ." and know who was talking to them. Let me tell you the stories go on and on.

The worst thing is that they reported it to the university and absolutely nothing was done about it. As a matter of fact, when they refused to continue with what the group was doing, like asking new members to carry pledge books, etc; the university supported the hazing sorority. Rather than listening to their students, they chose to follow the agenda of a rouge group that only wants power and cares nothing about true fellowship.

Yup, I am glad I was never a part of that loser group. Our founders made the right decision to break away and start anew! We are all really good friends with a common purpose, there is no need to demean each other.

[jmuphigam]

My two cents while were talking about how long our chapters and fraternities have been around...
I highly doubt that your founding fathers chained the beta class to a keg and forced them to drink, or made them do push-ups until theyd memorized the values, or beat them...