Uncle tom fad

[straightBOS]

Originally posted by The Original Ape:
I appreciate your point. In fact, everybody that responded had good points. When I posted this, I was refering to people that totally dismiss their culture-in every way they can, deliberately; not those that speak properly and maintain their relationships with their own. I have to go back and see what I possibly had said that made people miss my point. The fact that I used an adopted intonation as an example may be the culprit. Perhaps I didn't explain what I meant well enough. If that's the case, again I apologize. Most people know who/what I'm referring to. Again, you have a good point.

I think the "intonement" part was the culprit, also. It kinda makes people (incluing myself) feel like our skin color is being linked to the way we talk.

From reading more of the posts, I am guessing that you were referring to people who, lets say, reluctantly decide to abandon all that is "ethnic" about them because they feel that they will be better off. Kinda like people who benefitted from Affirmative Action, then as soon as they get the card to the Country Club, they want to shut down the program.

I guess I could agree that that behavior would might be en vouge. With the growth of the Black upper and middle classes, we have not found unity. We don't have many upper middle class Black neighborhoods that are easy to find. (I'm in Boston, so I'm speaking for my area) There are many, but they are so scattered across the country, that moving might not be a viable option for most. So, instead, they align themselves with the closest alternative-people who may not appreciate their differences. So, in order to fit in, they assimilate.

Do I have it right yet?

In that case, I would agree that assimilation is a no-no.

[straightBOS]

Originally posted by straightBOS:
I think the "intonement" part was the culprit, also. It kinda makes people (incluing myself) feel like skin color is being linked to the way we talk.

From reading more of the posts, I am guessing that you were referring to people who, lets say, reluctantly decide to abandon all that is "ethnic" about them because they feel that they will be better off.

I guess I could agree that that behavior might be en vouge. There has been a surge in the growth of the Black upper and middle classes. But we don't have many upper middle class Black neighborhoods that are easy to find. (I'm in Boston, so I'm speaking for my area) There are many, but they are so scattered across the country, that moving might not be a viable option for most. So, instead, they align themselves with the closest alternative-people who may not appreciate their differences. So, in order to fit in, they assimilate.

Do I have it right yet?

In that case, I would agree that assimilation is a no-no.

[Ideal08]

Ok, I have a question. When TOA (or anyone for that matter) used intonation as an example for "talking white," some people got bent out of shape. Is it not true that some (not all) white people do have an accent that is different from our own? Most of their sentences end on an up note, where as ours are down. Y'all know what I'm talking about. Would it be any different if when I went down south I spoke with a southern accent? Or if I went to Boston and spoke with an east coast accent? Why do people take offense when someone uses the phrase "talking white?" If that's all you know, then ok. But if you only do it when around certain people, that's an issue.

I don't know. Sometimes I wonder. We try to be so inclusive that sometimes many of us overlook the obvious. White people speak differently from us, on average. I just don't understand why we walk on eggshells with this type of stuff. Yet the minute we hear someone with a southern accent (if you're up north), we ask them, where are you from? No offense taken. When it involves race, it's a whole different ball game.

By the way, I don't think that people who talk with a different intonation than me are Uncle Toms. I thought I would clarify that since my post really had nothing to do with the original topic.

[This message has been edited by Ideal08 (edited April 12, 2001).]

[The Original Ape]

Originally posted by straightBOS:
I think the "intonement" part was the culprit, also. It kinda makes people (incluing myself) feel like our skin color is being linked to the way we talk.

From reading more of the posts, I am guessing that you were referring to people who, lets say, reluctantly decide to abandon all that is "ethnic" about them because they feel that they will be better off. Kinda like people who benefitted from Affirmative Action, then as soon as they get the card to the Country Club, they want to shut down the program.

I guess I could agree that that behavior would might be en vouge. With the growth of the Black upper and middle classes, we have not found unity. We don't have many upper middle class Black neighborhoods that are easy to find. (I'm in Boston, so I'm speaking for my area) There are many, but they are so scattered across the country, that moving might not be a viable option for most. So, instead, they align themselves with the closest alternative-people who may not appreciate their differences. So, in order to fit in, they assimilate.

Do I have it right yet?

In that case, I would agree that assimilation is a no-no.

That's close enough.

I wish everybody on Greekchat could see the kinds of people that I work with. I tried(and failed miserably)to describe them; and now I know that words can't describe them.

[Ideal08]

Originally posted by jazbri:

I personally don't find that speaking with proper diction and grammar is a personification of talking white. There are white people out there who do not have a command of the English language themselves. There's a huge difference between someone with an accent vs an inability to speak with proper diction/grammar. I simply refuse to credit my proper use of English as a 'white thang'.

Jaz, I think you missed my point, LOL! Separate the accent and the proper English. It's two different things. I agree with you, correct diction is definitely not a white thang. I was speaking purely of accent and intonation. Hence, you can "talk white" without using correct grammar. Feel me? NEVER would I credit my use of correct grammar and whatnot to being a 'white thang.' Giiirrrl, please!

[jazbri]

Originally posted by Ideal08:
Jaz, I think you missed my point, LOL! Separate the accent and the proper English. It's two different things. I agree with you, correct diction is definitely not a white thang. I was speaking purely of accent and intonation. Hence, you can "talk white" without using correct grammar. Feel me? NEVER would I credit my use of correct grammar and whatnot to being a 'white thang.' Giiirrrl, please!

Yep, I guess I missed ya. So, I think you're saying that the way they enunciate certain words and use differnet speech patterns is what you'd call talking white vs what I thought you meant as using proper grammer, etc. That's probably more along the lines of what TOA was saying. Why do I feel that we've beat the hell out of this topic? Thanks for the clarification. I should have know that your thoughts were not in that direction!

[DST Love]

Originally posted by Ideal08:
Jaz, I think you missed my point, LOL! Separate the accent and the proper English. It's two different things. I agree with you, correct diction is definitely not a white thang. I was speaking purely of accent and intonation. Hence, you can "talk white" without using correct grammar. Feel me? NEVER would I credit my use of correct grammar and whatnot to being a 'white thang.' Giiirrrl, please!

Ideal08, I know what you're talking about when you say we end on a down note and they end up. People are definitely too sensitive. It has nothing to do with grammar. To some ignorant folks, that's what it means. But I know I definitely use proper english and 'speak well'. But there is a difference in our voices and our tone. For example, one of my coworkers was speaking on the phone with someone for me and I asked him did he sound 'Black' and he said yes. And I know for a fact that the person speaks well in terms of grammar but that his voice and tone were definitely indicators of his race. Now can one tell all of the time? No. But let's keep it real you can pretty much determine whether someone's white or black just by hearing their voice. And there is nothing wrong with admitting it. However if one means that using proper English is white, then that's a whole other story.

[jazbri]

Originally posted by Ideal08:
Ok, I have a question. When TOA (or anyone for that matter) used intonation as an example for "talking white," some people got bent out of shape. Is it not true that some (not all) white people do have an accent that is different from our own? Most of their sentences end on an up note, where as ours are down. Y'all know what I'm talking about. Would it be any different if when I went down south I spoke with a southern accent? Or if I went to Boston and spoke with an east coast accent? Why do people take offense when someone uses the phrase "talking white?" If that's all you know, then ok. But if you only do it when around certain people, that's an issue.

I don't know. Sometimes I wonder. We try to be so inclusive that sometimes many of us overlook the obvious. White people speak differently from us, on average. I just don't understand why we walk on eggshells with this type of stuff. Yet the minute we hear someone with a southern accent (if you're up north), we ask them, where are you from? No offense taken. When it involves race, it's a whole different ball game.

By the way, I don't think that people who talk with a different intonation than me are Uncle Toms. I thought I would clarify that since my post really had nothing to do with the original topic.

[This message has been edited by Ideal08 (edited April 12, 2001).]

I personally don't find that speaking with proper diction and grammar is a personification of talking white. There are white people out there who do not have a command of the English language themselves. There's a huge difference between someone with an accent vs an inability to speak with proper diction/grammar. I simply refuse to credit my proper use of English as a 'white thang'.

[mccoyred]

I recall reading something on this topic years ago, so bear with me.

The difference between a Black person and a white person, from the same area and using the same grammar is usually the amount of nasalization and the richness of the voice. Most whites tend to speak thru their nose hence sounding very 'nasal' whereas most Blacks speak from the throat and sound more 'earthy'. The difference in nasality and richness can also be heard in singing voices.

Now these are generalizations but I would venture to say that they are pretty accurate when examining how 'most' people speak (or is it talk?).

------------------
MCCOYRED
Mu Psi '86
BaltCo Alumnae

Dynamic...Salient...Temperate...Since 1913

[The Original Ape]

Originally posted by mccoyred:
I recall reading something on this topic years ago, so bear with me.

The difference between a Black person and a white person, from the same area and using the same grammar is usually the amount of nasalization and the richness of the voice. Most whites tend to speak thru their nose hence sounding very 'nasal' whereas most Blacks speak from the throat and sound more 'earthy'. The difference in nasality and richness can also be heard in singing voices.

Now these are generalizations but I would venture to say that they are pretty accurate when examining how 'most' people speak (or is it talk?).

Would sound be a better word?

[onesavvydiva]

Originally posted by DST Love:
Ideal08, I know what you're talking about when you say we end on a down note and they end up. People are definitely too sensitive. It has nothing to do with grammar. To some ignorant folks, that's what it means. But I know I definitely use proper english and 'speak well'. But there is a difference in our voices and our tone. For example, one of my coworkers was speaking on the phone with someone for me and I asked him did he sound 'Black' and he said yes. And I know for a fact that the person speaks well in terms of grammar but that his voice and tone were definitely indicators of his race. Now can one tell all of the time? No. But let's keep it real you can pretty much determine whether someone's white or black just by hearing their voice. And there is nothing wrong with admitting it. However if one means that using proper English is white, then that's a whole other story.

I am glad that I read down a little furthur because I started to post the exact same thing. Basically to come to TOA defense, like DST Love said...you can speak to two different people saying the exact same thing...both in correct grammatical correctness...and be able to tell if they are white or black. That's why TOA said INTONATION...it has nothing to do with what you are saying, but the sound/texture/etc of your voice. At my place of employment, I speak to LOTS of different people daily and To ME, I can tell 99% of the time whether the person on the other end is caucasian or not.

Just my .02 cents

[The Original Ape]

Originally posted by VctoriasSecrt:
THEIR intonation...do you mean proper...standard american english as used in places of higher learning and business settings? does it require improper gramatics to be a true brothah or sistah...to be down...and accepted? "we have adopted their intonation when we talk"...are you from the mothah land? were you born in south central ghana? if not...what is your point...and do they talk like that back "home"? last time i checked africans don't speak as you would wish us to either...so what's you point exactly?

I thought I made my point; but apparently some people don't understand the difference between diction and intonation. If you do, and have read my above attempts to explain this, then you'll understand my point-if you want to.

[The Original Ape]

My dear sista,

I am referring to people that INTENTIONALLY adopt an intonation(even without speaking properly), in an attempt to gain acceptance by their white couterparts. I understand that setting dictates one's choice of speech; but the people I'm talking about would bleach their skin if they knew how to. They abhor the color of their own skin, and everything related to it.

[AKA_Monet]

Hey, I'm gonna jump in and try 'splainin' what Brotha TOP is talkin' bout...

True dat, some negroes speak and cain't be deciphered as to WHAT they are. However, I raise this question, is it so much how they say it opposed to what they say that makes a negro??? Think of Clarence Uncle Thomas, and JC Watts.

And from an Afrikan Centered perspective, spiritually speaking, can you hide from the Universe and escape your destiny? Can a Lion sleep with a Tiger if that is all there is available? Will a gazelle ever "evolve" into a giraffe?

So, as far as some negro adopting Euro-pee-on traits as his own, and tryin' to become an oppressor --the anti affirmative action participant--OR Black on paper, we in the struggle havta let that negro go. He must have the choice to be lost in the assimilated maze of EuroSerendipity (read as enslavement)...

Here's another question, why do WE have to be unified? Or rather Alcee Hastings' question at the "State of Black America"--Is there a Black Community anymore?

Isn't multiculturalism--or diversity--what our parents, grandparents and ancestors marched, fought, and died for??? Can't we all just get along???

(I am just raising these questions to see folks answers, not 'cuz I really believe all of them...)

[AKA2D '91]

Soror,

I don't know if OUR ancestors et.al fought, died, marched for multi-culturalism. I think they did all of that for us (BLACKS) to have a LEVELED playing field, to have equal rights among the masses.

Multiculturalism, you know that melting pot ideology came from the other people, that melting pot did not include US.

That's my opinion.